1 00:01:03,340 --> 00:00:17,070 [Music] 2 00:01:05,980 --> 00:01:03,350 and good evening from Philadelphia Frank 3 00:01:08,590 --> 00:01:05,990 here with a Thursday night edition of 4 00:01:10,870 --> 00:01:08,600 UFO news network Sunday we're all ready 5 00:01:13,300 --> 00:01:10,880 to go we've got a great guest and to 6 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:13,310 bring him on now let me introduce my 7 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:17,210 co-host the one the only chant Hannah 8 00:01:22,960 --> 00:01:19,090 how's everything going tonight chant 9 00:01:25,210 --> 00:01:22,970 it's going Frank thank you so much I'm 10 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:25,220 so glad to be back we have a very 11 00:01:28,390 --> 00:01:27,770 special guest on our show who's also a 12 00:01:31,210 --> 00:01:28,400 friend of ours 13 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:31,220 he's a very wonderful person his name is 14 00:01:37,359 --> 00:01:35,210 Tom Whitmore and a long time MUFON board 15 00:01:39,460 --> 00:01:37,369 member tom Whitmore retired recently as 16 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:39,470 a financial analyst with a local firm in 17 00:01:44,710 --> 00:01:42,530 San Antonio in 2019 tom was invited to 18 00:01:46,719 --> 00:01:44,720 join the MUFON Board in 95 and 19 00:01:49,090 --> 00:01:46,729 experienced the organization's progress 20 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:49,100 through the successive administration's 21 00:01:52,780 --> 00:01:50,930 of five different administrations on up 22 00:01:54,790 --> 00:01:52,790 to the current international MUFON 23 00:01:57,580 --> 00:01:54,800 director Jan Harrison he serves as 24 00:02:00,389 --> 00:01:57,590 treasurer and focuses on long-term and 25 00:02:03,430 --> 00:02:00,399 strategic issues for the organization 26 00:02:05,260 --> 00:02:03,440 tom has been fascinated by military and 27 00:02:07,570 --> 00:02:05,270 intelligence agencies interactions with 28 00:02:09,070 --> 00:02:07,580 the UFO public he has undertaken a 29 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:09,080 research study of the history of the 30 00:02:13,110 --> 00:02:11,090 mj-12 affair and intends to have 31 00:02:15,670 --> 00:02:13,120 eventually published his findings he 32 00:02:18,550 --> 00:02:15,680 participates in discussions of the mj-12 33 00:02:20,770 --> 00:02:18,560 topic by giving presentations to local 34 00:02:22,810 --> 00:02:20,780 UFO groups appearing on internet 35 00:02:24,970 --> 00:02:22,820 podcasts and radio shows and by 36 00:02:27,640 --> 00:02:24,980 communicating in social media you can 37 00:02:29,220 --> 00:02:27,650 view his information on his blog at Tom 38 00:02:33,059 --> 00:02:29,230 Whitmer blog 39 00:02:35,770 --> 00:02:33,069 wordpress.com that is Tom Whitmore blog 40 00:02:37,660 --> 00:02:35,780 doc wordpress.com and I will be bringing 41 00:02:40,450 --> 00:02:37,670 up that URL several times during our 42 00:02:41,890 --> 00:02:40,460 podcast tonight welcome Tom on our show 43 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:41,900 it's so nice to have you on our show 44 00:02:44,550 --> 00:02:43,730 I've been looking forward to this for a 45 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:44,560 long time 46 00:02:49,660 --> 00:02:47,450 Thank You champ and Frank and I'm very 47 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:49,670 glad to be here I'm really looking 48 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:51,530 forward to this conversation yeah thanks 49 00:02:55,980 --> 00:02:54,050 a lot for coming on Tom how how are you 50 00:03:01,300 --> 00:02:55,990 by the way Tom how how have you been 51 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:01,310 I've been well for my age and I keep 52 00:03:06,010 --> 00:03:04,490 busy I try to put in a solid four hours 53 00:03:08,920 --> 00:03:06,020 of work on my project today 54 00:03:10,809 --> 00:03:08,930 yeah that's not chronological that's not 55 00:03:13,660 --> 00:03:10,819 a time span of four hours but rather 56 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:13,670 actual four hours of work and then after 57 00:03:17,770 --> 00:03:16,010 that I take care of more personal 58 00:03:20,020 --> 00:03:17,780 business and trying to get my apartment 59 00:03:21,910 --> 00:03:20,030 and order that I just moved into in 60 00:03:25,330 --> 00:03:21,920 September so I'm keeping busy 61 00:03:27,630 --> 00:03:25,340 now I'm really quick you moved to a DC 62 00:03:30,309 --> 00:03:27,640 and are spending a lot of time 63 00:03:33,399 --> 00:03:30,319 researching at some various archives 64 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:33,409 around there is that about right yes sir 65 00:03:39,940 --> 00:03:36,290 Frank when I first got here as soon as I 66 00:03:42,550 --> 00:03:39,950 moved in and I got moved and then I went 67 00:03:46,479 --> 00:03:42,560 straight to the National Archives and I 68 00:03:48,670 --> 00:03:46,489 am I had the cover 20 memo pulled and I 69 00:03:50,830 --> 00:03:48,680 spent many hours at the National 70 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:50,840 Archives so far and I plan to spend more 71 00:03:55,030 --> 00:03:52,730 that I've been through hundreds of 72 00:03:56,379 --> 00:03:55,040 documents there and I've also been 73 00:03:57,610 --> 00:03:56,389 through a lot of documents at the 74 00:04:00,970 --> 00:03:57,620 Library of Congress 75 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:00,980 you pulled a pretty nice find a meeting 76 00:04:06,759 --> 00:04:04,250 between I believe general twining was 77 00:04:08,530 --> 00:04:06,769 involved in some other people that were 78 00:04:10,179 --> 00:04:08,540 there the discussion was actually about 79 00:04:12,330 --> 00:04:10,189 flying saucers I remember seeing that 80 00:04:15,099 --> 00:04:12,340 and that that was pretty interesting 81 00:04:17,890 --> 00:04:15,109 well the interesting thing was it was 82 00:04:21,039 --> 00:04:17,900 twenties number two and those 83 00:04:23,740 --> 00:04:21,049 discussions took place on those on the 84 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:23,750 chronologies that you saw that mentioned 85 00:04:29,980 --> 00:04:27,050 saucers those discussions took place 86 00:04:31,750 --> 00:04:29,990 while General twining was out of town so 87 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:31,760 his number two was having those 88 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:35,210 discussions that's interesting you know 89 00:04:39,399 --> 00:04:37,010 I wanted to bring up a very important 90 00:04:43,029 --> 00:04:39,409 topic that I know is actually extremely 91 00:04:45,790 --> 00:04:43,039 important to the UFO community for for a 92 00:04:48,399 --> 00:04:45,800 very long time now and I think that you 93 00:04:50,110 --> 00:04:48,409 from my perspective have become an 94 00:04:54,550 --> 00:04:50,120 expert in your own right on this topic 95 00:04:58,089 --> 00:04:54,560 and that is the legendary mj-12 topic 96 00:05:00,640 --> 00:04:58,099 and I wanted to ask you what what you've 97 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:00,650 come up with regarding that topic let's 98 00:05:05,890 --> 00:05:03,010 start off with the definition of mj-12 99 00:05:09,310 --> 00:05:05,900 subject and anything else you want to go 100 00:05:13,270 --> 00:05:09,320 ahead and follow up with after that the 101 00:05:16,779 --> 00:05:13,280 mj-12 subject originated in the 1980s 102 00:05:20,620 --> 00:05:16,789 when a set of documents appeared 103 00:05:23,529 --> 00:05:20,630 anonymously with UFO researchers and the 104 00:05:24,430 --> 00:05:23,539 documents implied that there had been 105 00:05:28,660 --> 00:05:24,440 recovered 106 00:05:31,180 --> 00:05:28,670 of a UFO along with the bodies and that 107 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:31,190 a very special very secret committee had 108 00:05:37,990 --> 00:05:35,290 been formed of 12 top military 109 00:05:41,710 --> 00:05:38,000 scientific and government people that 110 00:05:46,330 --> 00:05:41,720 were they were tasked with setting the 111 00:05:49,090 --> 00:05:46,340 problem and and managing it now the 112 00:05:51,550 --> 00:05:49,100 documents that were received are 113 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:51,560 questioned they're what we consider 114 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:53,450 questioned documents they've been very 115 00:05:59,710 --> 00:05:56,810 controversial and some of them have been 116 00:06:02,470 --> 00:05:59,720 pored over and analyzed in great detail 117 00:06:06,100 --> 00:06:02,480 and all kinds of things have been found 118 00:06:09,340 --> 00:06:06,110 wrong with them now from my standpoint I 119 00:06:13,030 --> 00:06:09,350 divide the subject into two areas the 120 00:06:17,020 --> 00:06:13,040 first is the history of the mj-12 affair 121 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:17,030 itself and by that I mean the people 122 00:06:22,330 --> 00:06:19,250 that were involved and the documents 123 00:06:24,700 --> 00:06:22,340 coming into the public domain and the 124 00:06:26,740 --> 00:06:24,710 claims that have been made and the 125 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:26,750 activities and the controversies that 126 00:06:33,430 --> 00:06:29,690 have insert' ensued in the in the 127 00:06:36,340 --> 00:06:33,440 subject and I believe I've expanded my 128 00:06:38,980 --> 00:06:36,350 definition of the mj-12 affair to cover 129 00:06:41,950 --> 00:06:38,990 a period of about thirty five years and 130 00:06:44,530 --> 00:06:41,960 I started around the time that Leonard 131 00:06:47,470 --> 00:06:44,540 Stringfield was coming out with his 132 00:06:49,300 --> 00:06:47,480 crashed saucer findings and at about the 133 00:06:52,270 --> 00:06:49,310 same time that the book the Roswell 134 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:52,280 incident came out and since then we've 135 00:06:58,510 --> 00:06:56,050 had a series of questioned documents and 136 00:07:01,270 --> 00:06:58,520 claims and even videos that have come 137 00:07:05,170 --> 00:07:01,280 out almost up to the present day for 138 00:07:08,430 --> 00:07:05,180 example in mj-12 related document came 139 00:07:12,310 --> 00:07:08,440 out in in 2017 I call it the ultra 140 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:12,320 top-secret mj-12 document and then even 141 00:07:17,650 --> 00:07:14,690 within the last month we've had the 142 00:07:19,450 --> 00:07:17,660 public or within the last year we've had 143 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:19,460 the public exposure of the so-called 144 00:07:25,810 --> 00:07:22,730 Admiral Wilson and kit green documents 145 00:07:28,510 --> 00:07:25,820 so the controversy in my opinion has has 146 00:07:30,970 --> 00:07:28,520 continued even up to the present day now 147 00:07:33,219 --> 00:07:30,980 that's that's the first part the second 148 00:07:36,159 --> 00:07:33,229 part is the legend of the mj-12 149 00:07:38,050 --> 00:07:36,169 committee itself and this is the legend 150 00:07:41,620 --> 00:07:38,060 that has developed 151 00:07:45,250 --> 00:07:41,630 largely out of claims and stories that 152 00:07:48,010 --> 00:07:45,260 came out in the 1980s and they were 153 00:07:50,500 --> 00:07:48,020 there related to not only the mj-12 154 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:50,510 documents themselves but a series of 155 00:07:58,090 --> 00:07:54,410 rumored histories of the US government 156 00:08:01,720 --> 00:07:58,100 involvement with really serious UFO 157 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:01,730 issues such as crash recoveries alien 158 00:08:06,970 --> 00:08:04,370 bodies possible relationships with alien 159 00:08:10,900 --> 00:08:06,980 groups and so on and so forth and that I 160 00:08:12,810 --> 00:08:10,910 put in the legend category now I'm 161 00:08:15,700 --> 00:08:12,820 talking really quick can you run through 162 00:08:19,540 --> 00:08:15,710 some of the names who were purportedly 163 00:08:25,180 --> 00:08:19,550 part of this organization the alleged 164 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:25,190 mj-12 members yes sir yeah I had a bush 165 00:08:30,730 --> 00:08:28,130 yeah James Forrestal who unfortunately 166 00:08:35,170 --> 00:08:30,740 died he was replaced by Walter Bedell 167 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:35,180 Smith you had Admiral killing Keter Hoyt 168 00:08:41,290 --> 00:08:38,450 Vandenberg he was a four-star general a 169 00:08:43,450 --> 00:08:41,300 chief of staff of the Air Force Sidney 170 00:08:46,030 --> 00:08:43,460 sours he was an admiral but he was 171 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:46,040 actually he actually became a very close 172 00:08:53,790 --> 00:08:49,250 advisor to President Truman Gordon gray 173 00:08:56,620 --> 00:08:53,800 was an elite league political appointee 174 00:08:59,850 --> 00:08:56,630 there's a general Montague that I 175 00:09:02,920 --> 00:08:59,860 believe was working at at Sandia base 176 00:09:06,690 --> 00:09:02,930 Detlef bronc was a very high-level 177 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:06,700 authority on biophysics and and 178 00:09:13,900 --> 00:09:09,650 physiological subjects Lloyd bertner I 179 00:09:14,530 --> 00:09:13,910 believe was was a aircraft and aerospace 180 00:09:18,370 --> 00:09:14,540 designer 181 00:09:20,770 --> 00:09:18,380 Donald Menzel was in the was a Harvard 182 00:09:23,230 --> 00:09:20,780 astronomer and he was notorious for 183 00:09:26,650 --> 00:09:23,240 debunking UFOs and you had general 184 00:09:29,620 --> 00:09:26,660 Nathan twining who was Vandenberg's 185 00:09:32,170 --> 00:09:29,630 number two and eventually became chief 186 00:09:35,410 --> 00:09:32,180 of staff of the Air Force and then you 187 00:09:37,420 --> 00:09:35,420 had Jerome unsacred so those are the 188 00:09:39,190 --> 00:09:37,430 twelve huh could you give us a little 189 00:09:43,870 --> 00:09:39,200 bit more about the background of a 190 00:09:46,770 --> 00:09:43,880 Forrestal and Vannevar Bush day after 191 00:09:50,350 --> 00:09:46,780 our Bush was one of the leading 192 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:50,360 technologists of this time and for this 193 00:09:55,330 --> 00:09:52,010 especially for the song 194 00:09:59,500 --> 00:09:55,340 made us they had really gotten in on the 195 00:10:02,740 --> 00:09:59,510 ground floor these men had started their 196 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:02,750 serious work in the 20s so by the 40s by 197 00:10:06,910 --> 00:10:04,730 World War two they were at the height of 198 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:06,920 their careers and many of them had 199 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:09,650 broken new ground and had been experts 200 00:10:14,980 --> 00:10:12,290 in the field and Vannevar Bush was a 201 00:10:17,830 --> 00:10:14,990 good example of that he was an 202 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:17,840 electrical engineer and he was actually 203 00:10:23,470 --> 00:10:20,930 so high in the hierarchy if you hear 204 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:23,480 about or when you think about the 205 00:10:29,230 --> 00:10:25,370 development of the nuclear weapons of 206 00:10:32,740 --> 00:10:29,240 the atomic bomb you had you had geniuses 207 00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:32,750 like Robert Oh Oppenheimer working for T 208 00:10:37,990 --> 00:10:35,690 star general general grows who has just 209 00:10:39,850 --> 00:10:38,000 an awesome figure in terms of 210 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:39,860 organization and accomplishments and 211 00:10:45,220 --> 00:10:42,410 then above him was Vannevar Bush and I 212 00:10:47,710 --> 00:10:45,230 think James Caan out of Harvard you know 213 00:10:50,470 --> 00:10:47,720 there were three of those guys above him 214 00:10:55,210 --> 00:10:50,480 so Vannevar Bush was very very high in 215 00:10:58,810 --> 00:10:55,220 the hierarchy and then Forrestal was he 216 00:11:02,350 --> 00:10:58,820 he had been successful on Wall Street 217 00:11:05,110 --> 00:11:02,360 and he became the eventually the 218 00:11:08,140 --> 00:11:05,120 Secretary of Defense during the Truman 219 00:11:10,450 --> 00:11:08,150 administration unfortunately things did 220 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:10,460 not work out well for him as Secretary 221 00:11:15,460 --> 00:11:12,770 of Defense and he ended up having 222 00:11:17,530 --> 00:11:15,470 serious psychological problems and that 223 00:11:20,740 --> 00:11:17,540 Vannevar Bush was also the founder of 224 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:20,750 Raytheon which is to this day a major 225 00:11:25,180 --> 00:11:22,930 defense contractor is that about right 226 00:11:27,070 --> 00:11:25,190 that's right I was gonna mention that 227 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:27,080 but I was afraid I might not be able to 228 00:11:33,910 --> 00:11:30,650 remember the name well a Raytheon was 229 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:33,920 also the company that built that FLIR 230 00:11:39,250 --> 00:11:36,490 contraption that captured the UFO video 231 00:11:41,140 --> 00:11:39,260 friend during the Nimitz case so there 232 00:11:43,210 --> 00:11:41,150 they were they were crowing about that 233 00:11:45,910 --> 00:11:43,220 right in the yeah the median aftermath 234 00:11:47,530 --> 00:11:45,920 of all that and also just a little bit 235 00:11:50,830 --> 00:11:47,540 more about bush he's a pretty 236 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:50,840 fascinating guy he's also considered 237 00:11:55,420 --> 00:11:52,810 sort of the father of the Internet he 238 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:55,430 conceived of a sort of hypertext and 239 00:11:59,920 --> 00:11:57,050 things like that back in the 40s and 240 00:12:02,230 --> 00:11:59,930 also headed up the office of scientific 241 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:02,240 research and development which oversaw 242 00:12:05,710 --> 00:12:04,130 the Manhattan Project so he was a pretty 243 00:12:09,879 --> 00:12:05,720 well-connected guy so 244 00:12:12,939 --> 00:12:09,889 insertion development yep yep so okay 245 00:12:14,860 --> 00:12:12,949 yeah yeah chant go ahead wanted to bring 246 00:12:18,519 --> 00:12:14,870 up just a little bit of you faun trivia 247 00:12:22,079 --> 00:12:18,529 and that is our network actually had a 248 00:12:29,139 --> 00:12:22,089 wonderful interview with Peter Robbins 249 00:12:31,660 --> 00:12:29,149 and that was on 220 of 2019 regarding a 250 00:12:34,179 --> 00:12:31,670 fascinating discussion about James 251 00:12:37,269 --> 00:12:34,189 Forrestal so I just wanted to mention 252 00:12:40,119 --> 00:12:37,279 that to our listeners that not only will 253 00:12:40,900 --> 00:12:40,129 we have a really fascinating podcaster 254 00:12:43,509 --> 00:12:40,910 with Tom 255 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:43,519 regarding the mj-12 topic and maybe 256 00:12:47,530 --> 00:12:45,170 cover a little bit of James Forrestal 257 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:47,540 here but for a really deep in-depth 258 00:12:52,629 --> 00:12:49,610 discussion about him that lasted about 259 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:52,639 an hour to to listen to that podcast as 260 00:12:58,900 --> 00:12:57,050 well yes I've heard him talk about that 261 00:13:01,240 --> 00:12:58,910 I've heard him talk about that on 262 00:13:03,639 --> 00:13:01,250 another program and it's a very 263 00:13:06,309 --> 00:13:03,649 intriguing subject but I think he held 264 00:13:08,410 --> 00:13:06,319 the good part back and I didn't I never 265 00:13:10,119 --> 00:13:08,420 heard his actual theory on you know what 266 00:13:11,139 --> 00:13:10,129 happened but it that's a very 267 00:13:14,019 --> 00:13:11,149 interesting subject 268 00:13:17,410 --> 00:13:14,029 yeah you've covered the names of the 269 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:17,420 alleged mj-12 members I wanted to know 270 00:13:22,509 --> 00:13:19,490 if you could move forward on past that 271 00:13:27,220 --> 00:13:22,519 into the history the definitive history 272 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:27,230 of the mj-12 topic well in terms of the 273 00:13:33,100 --> 00:13:30,050 mj-12 affair like I've got a pretty long 274 00:13:35,350 --> 00:13:33,110 list and I'm gonna read this pretty fast 275 00:13:37,059 --> 00:13:35,360 but I know that you all are familiar 276 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:37,069 with these and a lot of people in the 277 00:13:45,579 --> 00:13:40,730 UFO community are but we can start out 278 00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:45,589 with with Leonard Stringfield work with 279 00:13:51,579 --> 00:13:49,040 the Roswell incident book coming out 280 00:13:54,460 --> 00:13:51,589 then we had the activities of William 281 00:13:56,799 --> 00:13:54,470 Moore UFO researcher we had the release 282 00:13:59,590 --> 00:13:56,809 of the mj-12 documents themselves in the 283 00:14:02,590 --> 00:13:59,600 1980s there were the controversies about 284 00:14:05,460 --> 00:14:02,600 the Paul bennewitz affair there were 285 00:14:08,619 --> 00:14:05,470 claims made by Bill Cooper and John Lear 286 00:14:12,549 --> 00:14:08,629 there was the UFO cover-up live program 287 00:14:14,829 --> 00:14:12,559 there were the Bob Lazar claims then we 288 00:14:17,139 --> 00:14:14,839 had a whole series of documents come out 289 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:17,149 in the nineties associated with a 290 00:14:23,340 --> 00:14:19,690 researcher by the name of Timothy Cooper 291 00:14:26,670 --> 00:14:23,350 we had the alien autopsy video we had 292 00:14:31,470 --> 00:14:26,680 the dan burisch claims the Serpas story 293 00:14:34,260 --> 00:14:31,480 we had claims made by Robert Dean and we 294 00:14:36,570 --> 00:14:34,270 had Steven Greer's work and we've had 295 00:14:39,180 --> 00:14:36,580 this ultra top-secret document come out 296 00:14:41,610 --> 00:14:39,190 in addition to that Richard Doty has 297 00:14:44,220 --> 00:14:41,620 given a number of interviews over the 298 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:44,230 last couple of years I personally have 299 00:14:49,290 --> 00:14:46,930 reviewed 11 of them and and I've taken 300 00:14:50,610 --> 00:14:49,300 extensive notes and then again like I 301 00:14:53,010 --> 00:14:50,620 mentioned we've had we've had the 302 00:14:55,350 --> 00:14:53,020 Admiral Wilson and the KITT green 303 00:14:58,320 --> 00:14:55,360 documents this is all occurred over a 304 00:15:03,390 --> 00:14:58,330 period of 35 years so this is this is a 305 00:15:06,060 --> 00:15:03,400 pattern in my opinion so I you mentioned 306 00:15:09,060 --> 00:15:06,070 Richard Doty now obviously and Bill 307 00:15:11,370 --> 00:15:09,070 Moore now a lot of people are convinced 308 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:11,380 that they are the gentleman responsible 309 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:13,450 for constructing at least some of these 310 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:17,890 alleged majestic 12 documents well Bill 311 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:22,170 Moore has been under suspicion but I 312 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:25,690 personally don't subscribe to the view 313 00:15:29,820 --> 00:15:28,330 and I'm not saying that he didn't do it 314 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:29,830 I don't know but I don't necessarily 315 00:15:35,310 --> 00:15:32,650 subscribe to the view that he forged the 316 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:35,320 mj-12 documents for a couple of reasons 317 00:15:41,190 --> 00:15:38,770 if if what he said is true when he 318 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:41,200 received the documents he sat on them 319 00:15:46,650 --> 00:15:44,050 for two or three years before they went 320 00:15:49,620 --> 00:15:46,660 public and the only reason why he made 321 00:15:51,660 --> 00:15:49,630 them public was because Timothy good in 322 00:15:55,620 --> 00:15:51,670 the United Kingdom was getting ready to 323 00:15:59,310 --> 00:15:55,630 release them secondly people that create 324 00:16:02,130 --> 00:15:59,320 forgeries don't normally write 100 Plus 325 00:16:05,310 --> 00:16:02,140 page books analyzing their own forgery 326 00:16:07,650 --> 00:16:05,320 and Bill Moore has a very informative 327 00:16:12,090 --> 00:16:07,660 book called the mj-12 documents an 328 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:12,100 analytical review now I think that if 329 00:16:18,180 --> 00:16:15,970 you in principle if you ask Richard Doty 330 00:16:20,370 --> 00:16:18,190 about creating the documents he will 331 00:16:22,410 --> 00:16:20,380 tell you that he had nothing to do with 332 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:22,420 the creation of those documents he 333 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:27,490 denies it or what do you think 334 00:16:33,660 --> 00:16:30,850 well there are different theories I have 335 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:33,670 you know several possibilities I used to 336 00:16:40,590 --> 00:16:36,490 think that they might have come out of 337 00:16:44,069 --> 00:16:40,600 Air Force intelligence but I'm what one 338 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:44,079 notion I've been mulling over is the 339 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:46,170 possibility that they may have come out 340 00:16:51,389 --> 00:16:48,730 somewhere within the aviary the 341 00:16:55,290 --> 00:16:51,399 so-called aviary there are certain 342 00:16:57,989 --> 00:16:55,300 people that you can trace a lot of these 343 00:17:01,429 --> 00:16:57,999 notions back to them being such people 344 00:17:04,740 --> 00:17:01,439 as Arnie Keller Stross and Dale Graf and 345 00:17:08,579 --> 00:17:04,750 some and some other individuals I'm not 346 00:17:11,519 --> 00:17:08,589 accusing them I don't know but that is 347 00:17:16,649 --> 00:17:11,529 one possibility now one of the things 348 00:17:19,319 --> 00:17:16,659 that's always intrigued telework is it's 349 00:17:21,779 --> 00:17:19,329 it's their stock and trade to create 350 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:21,789 phony documents intelligence agencies 351 00:17:28,340 --> 00:17:24,970 create phony passports they create phony 352 00:17:33,060 --> 00:17:28,350 documents they do that all the time so 353 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:33,070 first notion was that the documents came 354 00:17:38,490 --> 00:17:35,770 out somewhere within the intelligence 355 00:17:40,710 --> 00:17:38,500 community now there is another notion 356 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:40,720 that and Bill Moore has said this 357 00:17:45,269 --> 00:17:42,730 himself and I can read I can read 358 00:17:47,580 --> 00:17:45,279 chapter and verse that there are certain 359 00:17:50,130 --> 00:17:47,590 people within the government matrix that 360 00:17:53,039 --> 00:17:50,140 were unhappy with the level of secrecy 361 00:17:56,130 --> 00:17:53,049 about the US government's involvement in 362 00:17:58,080 --> 00:17:56,140 the UFO affair and they wanted to get 363 00:17:59,340 --> 00:17:58,090 some information out of the public but 364 00:18:01,919 --> 00:17:59,350 they had to do it in such a way that 365 00:18:04,740 --> 00:18:01,929 they weren't breaking any laws and that 366 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:04,750 allowed plausible deniability one one 367 00:18:11,460 --> 00:18:07,570 way to do that is to create documents 368 00:18:15,750 --> 00:18:11,470 that appear to be official but obviously 369 00:18:18,950 --> 00:18:15,760 are flawed and have red flags and that 370 00:18:22,230 --> 00:18:18,960 allows possible deniability 371 00:18:23,279 --> 00:18:22,240 now these some of these are mjk yeah let 372 00:18:26,430 --> 00:18:23,289 me get in here chance some of these 373 00:18:29,820 --> 00:18:26,440 mj-12 documents actually do check out 374 00:18:33,510 --> 00:18:29,830 there's a supposedly a meeting where 375 00:18:37,169 --> 00:18:33,520 truman or well there's a document where 376 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:37,179 truman authorizes the formation of the 377 00:18:41,310 --> 00:18:39,850 majestic 12 on a particular date and as 378 00:18:43,499 --> 00:18:41,320 it turns out 379 00:18:45,690 --> 00:18:43,509 that in the Truman library it's very 380 00:18:47,190 --> 00:18:45,700 easy to find on that particular date 381 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:47,200 yeah you'll see a meeting with Truman 382 00:18:51,990 --> 00:18:49,690 and Vannevar Bush that much checks out 383 00:18:57,450 --> 00:18:52,000 so at the very least these documents are 384 00:19:01,169 --> 00:18:57,460 pretty well researched well some of them 385 00:19:06,060 --> 00:19:01,179 have them and to to investigators to 386 00:19:09,419 --> 00:19:06,070 researchers the the woods Robert Wood 387 00:19:11,430 --> 00:19:09,429 and Ryan would have really gone over the 388 00:19:13,590 --> 00:19:11,440 other the second real set of mj-12 389 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:13,600 documents which came through 390 00:19:20,639 --> 00:19:16,690 Timothy Cooper and started showing up in 391 00:19:23,580 --> 00:19:20,649 the 1990s and the woods have done a lot 392 00:19:25,289 --> 00:19:23,590 of work on trying to establish what you 393 00:19:27,330 --> 00:19:25,299 know the level of authenticity or 394 00:19:29,070 --> 00:19:27,340 genuineness of some of those other 395 00:19:32,249 --> 00:19:29,080 documents and some of the documents 396 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:32,259 obviously are altered you know there 397 00:19:35,460 --> 00:19:33,610 have been sections that have been found 398 00:19:37,289 --> 00:19:35,470 to be taken out of this other 399 00:19:40,860 --> 00:19:37,299 documentary this book or something 400 00:19:44,639 --> 00:19:40,870 things like that but all in all there's 401 00:19:48,869 --> 00:19:44,649 there's an awful ly high volume of these 402 00:19:50,879 --> 00:19:48,879 documents and somebody for one hoaxer to 403 00:19:52,769 --> 00:19:50,889 create all that somebody is gonna have 404 00:19:58,409 --> 00:19:52,779 to sit down do an awful lot of work and 405 00:20:01,440 --> 00:19:58,419 that that doesn't seem very probable to 406 00:20:04,049 --> 00:20:01,450 me understood understood that way can't 407 00:20:07,950 --> 00:20:04,059 go ahead you have something here yeah I 408 00:20:12,899 --> 00:20:07,960 actually wanted to ask Tom if you feel 409 00:20:16,139 --> 00:20:12,909 that the aviary group was created by the 410 00:20:19,139 --> 00:20:16,149 Defense Department to research ET 411 00:20:22,499 --> 00:20:19,149 weaponry and biotechnology as well as 412 00:20:30,499 --> 00:20:22,509 run some kind of interference program on 413 00:20:34,110 --> 00:20:30,509 civilian researchers or investigators or 414 00:20:47,310 --> 00:20:34,120 regarding any academics scientific 415 00:20:49,259 --> 00:20:47,320 scientific or any faction of any 416 00:20:52,740 --> 00:20:49,269 government around the world do you think 417 00:20:55,020 --> 00:20:52,750 the aviary was created that way born out 418 00:21:00,920 --> 00:20:55,030 of that or was it 419 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:00,930 created through the aviary the 420 00:21:12,390 --> 00:21:05,770 conventional wisdom is that Bill Moore 421 00:21:16,340 --> 00:21:12,400 had been developing contacts and along 422 00:21:19,830 --> 00:21:16,350 during the years the 70s and the 80s 423 00:21:22,830 --> 00:21:19,840 there were people that had worked in the 424 00:21:25,130 --> 00:21:22,840 military and the government in fairly 425 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:25,140 sensitive positions and they were 426 00:21:30,540 --> 00:21:28,090 getting starting to communicate with one 427 00:21:31,590 --> 00:21:30,550 another and they were finding things in 428 00:21:34,590 --> 00:21:31,600 common 429 00:21:36,770 --> 00:21:34,600 certain of them had heard stories or had 430 00:21:39,210 --> 00:21:36,780 seen things and believe certain things 431 00:21:41,250 --> 00:21:39,220 and some of these people within the 432 00:21:44,850 --> 00:21:41,260 aviary were communicating with each 433 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:44,860 other and Bill Moore was developing his 434 00:21:51,090 --> 00:21:49,090 contacts and Bill Moore I think was a 435 00:21:54,780 --> 00:21:51,100 little bit concerned about secrecy and 436 00:21:57,030 --> 00:21:54,790 security and he decided to give this 437 00:21:59,280 --> 00:21:57,040 group of people that were his contacts 438 00:22:01,890 --> 00:21:59,290 to give them bird names and that and 439 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:01,900 thus the aviary that's that's the 440 00:22:05,190 --> 00:22:04,810 conventional wisdom on how how it came 441 00:22:09,150 --> 00:22:05,200 about 442 00:22:10,890 --> 00:22:09,160 now go ahead yeah before you go any 443 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:10,900 further today you run down the list of 444 00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:13,090 some of the people who were purported to 445 00:22:17,850 --> 00:22:15,370 be members of this sort of like an 446 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:17,860 invisible College of some insiders and 447 00:22:29,430 --> 00:22:20,050 Bill Moore and all that I was just gonna 448 00:22:30,930 --> 00:22:29,440 ask that question fantastic well I have 449 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:30,940 a partial list in front of me in case 450 00:22:36,180 --> 00:22:32,290 you need me to remind you I know 451 00:22:38,130 --> 00:22:36,190 Christopher green is one of them and if 452 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:38,140 you feel like you went add more like put 453 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:41,890 off perhaps he'll help put off Dale 454 00:22:50,820 --> 00:22:47,490 grass whose Maccabee Ernie Keller Stross 455 00:22:54,930 --> 00:22:50,830 Robert Collins known as Condor on the 456 00:22:58,890 --> 00:22:54,940 UFO cover-up lie program the shot even 457 00:23:01,500 --> 00:22:58,900 shot away right rocking his office in 458 00:23:02,910 --> 00:23:01,510 there I understand handwriting jandira 459 00:23:04,290 --> 00:23:02,920 yeah partly 460 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:04,300 no she and Ray I think that's how it's 461 00:23:08,890 --> 00:23:08,170 pronounced yeah okay and and Richard 462 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:08,900 Doty 463 00:23:14,650 --> 00:23:11,330 yeah those are those are some of the you 464 00:23:17,980 --> 00:23:14,660 know there's CB Scott Jones I think was 465 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:17,990 included in that we also of course have 466 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:21,050 bill more go ahead yeah bill more Ron 467 00:23:27,490 --> 00:23:23,930 Pandolfi green that's that's a lot of 468 00:23:30,220 --> 00:23:27,500 them I also have Partridge listed to a 469 00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:30,230 benign start not Partridge I apologize 470 00:23:35,260 --> 00:23:33,130 Partridge and hummingbird and chickadee 471 00:23:37,870 --> 00:23:35,270 respectively were were names that were 472 00:23:41,710 --> 00:23:37,880 attributed to some of these folks along 473 00:23:42,850 --> 00:23:41,720 with Condor yes so yeah yeah yeah could 474 00:23:44,410 --> 00:23:42,860 you tell the folks a little bit about 475 00:23:46,060 --> 00:23:44,420 though what these guys were working on 476 00:23:48,660 --> 00:23:46,070 anything you know it sounds like again 477 00:23:52,290 --> 00:23:48,670 sort of an invisible college so to speak 478 00:23:57,580 --> 00:23:52,300 yeah and one of the most fascinating 479 00:24:01,810 --> 00:23:57,590 articles I found Frank enchant is that 480 00:24:04,660 --> 00:24:01,820 there's there's a recapitulation by 481 00:24:08,530 --> 00:24:04,670 Bruce Maccabee who interviewed Ernie 482 00:24:10,810 --> 00:24:08,540 Keller straws and Ernie Keller Strasse I 483 00:24:15,490 --> 00:24:10,820 believe was stationed on Kirtland Air 484 00:24:20,740 --> 00:24:15,500 Force Base for time and he told Bruce 485 00:24:24,730 --> 00:24:20,750 Maccabee that there was at least one UFO 486 00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:24,740 stored at Kirtland Air Force Base and I 487 00:24:27,910 --> 00:24:26,510 can send you the reference to the 488 00:24:30,630 --> 00:24:27,920 article later if you like 489 00:24:33,010 --> 00:24:30,640 it to me is one of the most fascinating 490 00:24:36,310 --> 00:24:33,020 things that I that I've seen 491 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:36,320 now you take KITT Green KITT Green as a 492 00:24:42,910 --> 00:24:39,170 medical expert he's a medical doctor and 493 00:24:45,730 --> 00:24:42,920 he had taken over the so called weird 494 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:45,740 desk at the CIA and Bruce Maccabee 495 00:24:51,730 --> 00:24:48,530 himself was was an optical physicist 496 00:24:53,740 --> 00:24:51,740 with the Navy Robert Collins was a 497 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:53,750 physics person and I believe that he had 498 00:25:01,120 --> 00:24:56,690 been stationed out at wright-patterson 499 00:25:04,330 --> 00:25:01,130 Air Force Base we all know Jacmel a bit 500 00:25:07,740 --> 00:25:04,340 more was an independent UFO researcher 501 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:07,750 as was Jamie and array at that point 502 00:25:13,210 --> 00:25:10,250 Richard Doty as we all know was a 503 00:25:15,790 --> 00:25:13,220 special agent with the Air Force Office 504 00:25:17,980 --> 00:25:15,800 of Special Investigations so I can go on 505 00:25:20,260 --> 00:25:17,990 and on yeah can you tell me a little bit 506 00:25:22,330 --> 00:25:20,270 more about mr. Keller Strauss so I'm not 507 00:25:25,780 --> 00:25:22,340 that familiar with him 508 00:25:28,300 --> 00:25:25,790 I don't know a lot about him yet 509 00:25:33,430 --> 00:25:28,310 I'm gonna get into that much in much 510 00:25:35,860 --> 00:25:33,440 more detail Frank let me tell you 511 00:25:39,340 --> 00:25:35,870 something Jason I got it to do list a 512 00:25:39,820 --> 00:25:39,350 mile long I bet you do I'm just getting 513 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:39,830 started 514 00:25:48,910 --> 00:25:46,330 really yes pardon me oh by the way I 515 00:25:51,310 --> 00:25:48,920 posted an article on my Facebook page 516 00:25:54,370 --> 00:25:51,320 and on Twitter which is an article by 517 00:25:58,390 --> 00:25:54,380 Ernie Keller Strasse that he wrote I 518 00:26:01,570 --> 00:25:58,400 believe in 1973 and it was published in 519 00:26:03,730 --> 00:26:01,580 Air Force magazine and it is about 520 00:26:06,970 --> 00:26:03,740 drones and the thing that I found 521 00:26:10,420 --> 00:26:06,980 interesting about that was that Richard 522 00:26:12,310 --> 00:26:10,430 Doty has said that a lot of what Paul 523 00:26:15,700 --> 00:26:12,320 bennewitz was seeing on Kirtland Air 524 00:26:18,340 --> 00:26:15,710 Force Base were actually drone tests so 525 00:26:21,100 --> 00:26:18,350 I'll be glad to send you that reference 526 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:21,110 too if you like you put it up over on 527 00:26:29,310 --> 00:26:27,290 Twitter Facebook great just just a 528 00:26:33,190 --> 00:26:29,320 regarding at Bruce Maccabee interview 529 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:33,200 Ernie Hawk Keller Stross was of course 530 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:35,330 that was his nickname hawk because he 531 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:38,330 was allegedly a member of the aviary 532 00:26:44,130 --> 00:26:40,490 that was the name they attributed to him 533 00:26:46,900 --> 00:26:44,140 and if anybody wants to read that 534 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:46,910 interview part and parcel I'm not sure 535 00:26:51,460 --> 00:26:48,770 if it's the entire interviewer that 536 00:26:53,740 --> 00:26:51,470 Bruce Maccabee did with Ernie Hawk 537 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:53,750 killer Stross but that's on reality 538 00:26:58,120 --> 00:26:56,090 uncovered net so you would don't want 539 00:27:01,000 --> 00:26:58,130 Google and you would type in Bruce 540 00:27:04,420 --> 00:27:01,010 Maccabee which is M a double C a B 541 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:04,430 double E and then you would type in 542 00:27:14,530 --> 00:27:09,290 Ernie and then Hawk the the bird ha and 543 00:27:18,430 --> 00:27:14,540 then keller Stross which is ke WL er STR 544 00:27:19,810 --> 00:27:18,440 ESS and that interview will come up it's 545 00:27:21,250 --> 00:27:19,820 a fascinating interview I'm glad that 546 00:27:23,290 --> 00:27:21,260 you brought that up thank you very much 547 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:23,300 for having talked about that a little 548 00:27:27,700 --> 00:27:26,330 bit wanted to ask you a little bit more 549 00:27:31,210 --> 00:27:27,710 about the mj-12 550 00:27:33,820 --> 00:27:31,220 and that is up what I'm just gonna ask 551 00:27:35,299 --> 00:27:33,830 you point-blank it's kind of an unfair 552 00:27:39,129 --> 00:27:35,309 question but 553 00:27:41,499 --> 00:27:39,139 wanted to ask you what part of the mj-12 554 00:27:45,230 --> 00:27:41,509 I'm just going to title it as a 555 00:27:49,159 --> 00:27:45,240 conspiracy do you believe is the most 556 00:27:52,730 --> 00:27:49,169 credible to you well 557 00:27:57,590 --> 00:27:52,740 I always put it this way chant it 558 00:28:02,060 --> 00:27:57,600 depends the word is if is if there was a 559 00:28:05,330 --> 00:28:02,070 recovery of a flying saucer a UFO and it 560 00:28:08,659 --> 00:28:05,340 involves bodies and possibly even live 561 00:28:11,539 --> 00:28:08,669 alien and almost certainly some kind of 562 00:28:13,730 --> 00:28:11,549 group would have been formed to study it 563 00:28:16,789 --> 00:28:13,740 and possibly control the information 564 00:28:18,649 --> 00:28:16,799 around it I'm glad I'm very glad that 565 00:28:21,230 --> 00:28:18,659 you said that because you and I had a 566 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:21,240 wonderful conversation before the 567 00:28:25,789 --> 00:28:23,610 interview tonight and I had told you 568 00:28:28,039 --> 00:28:25,799 that I had listened to you in a recent 569 00:28:30,139 --> 00:28:28,049 interview which was really wonderful and 570 00:28:31,909 --> 00:28:30,149 you mentioned something really 571 00:28:34,340 --> 00:28:31,919 fascinating that I wanted to bring up 572 00:28:38,950 --> 00:28:34,350 and then ask for you to expound upon it 573 00:28:41,659 --> 00:28:38,960 and you said that will you mentioned 574 00:28:43,909 --> 00:28:41,669 something very interesting you said kal 575 00:28:45,859 --> 00:28:43,919 Korff wrote a book and the title of that 576 00:28:49,249 --> 00:28:45,869 book by the way so our listeners know is 577 00:28:51,769 --> 00:28:49,259 the Roswell UFO crash what they don't 578 00:28:54,850 --> 00:28:51,779 want you to know which is based on an a 579 00:28:57,230 --> 00:28:54,860 legendary flying saucer incident that 580 00:29:00,739 --> 00:28:57,240 allegedly crashed on a ranch in 581 00:29:04,159 --> 00:29:00,749 south-central New Mexico in Corona New 582 00:29:08,330 --> 00:29:04,169 Mexico in July of 1947 and as you know 583 00:29:12,710 --> 00:29:08,340 Tom Cal made a case that Jesse Marcel 584 00:29:16,070 --> 00:29:12,720 really exaggerated things and what what 585 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:16,080 I wanted to ask you is about something 586 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:18,690 you said on a program recently in an 587 00:29:26,359 --> 00:29:23,850 interview and that is you said this was 588 00:29:29,389 --> 00:29:26,369 you hypothesizing this and then I wanted 589 00:29:32,149 --> 00:29:29,399 you to expand upon expound upon it you 590 00:29:34,909 --> 00:29:32,159 said something to the effect of is it 591 00:29:37,669 --> 00:29:34,919 possible Jesse Marcel saw the debris at 592 00:29:40,340 --> 00:29:37,679 the Mac Brazel Ranch when there was in 593 00:29:42,919 --> 00:29:40,350 the actual vicinity of the same area of 594 00:29:47,810 --> 00:29:42,929 the ranch coincidentally at the same 595 00:29:50,300 --> 00:29:47,820 time a UFO hence a comedy of errors 596 00:29:53,300 --> 00:29:50,310 commenced from that point forward now I 597 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:53,310 didn't really say that very well but I 598 00:29:59,750 --> 00:29:55,410 know folks will get the gist of what you 599 00:30:02,180 --> 00:29:59,760 proposed as a possibility if you talk 600 00:30:05,210 --> 00:30:02,190 about that idea and then you also said 601 00:30:08,900 --> 00:30:05,220 in addition to that Tom that if there 602 00:30:12,020 --> 00:30:08,910 was a UFO crash and dead or alive or 603 00:30:13,790 --> 00:30:12,030 live alien bodies were recovered they're 604 00:30:15,500 --> 00:30:13,800 almost certainly would have been a 605 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:15,510 committee to have studied this type of 606 00:30:21,140 --> 00:30:17,970 occurrence so wanted to ask you about 607 00:30:22,670 --> 00:30:21,150 your hypothesis or something that you 608 00:30:25,490 --> 00:30:22,680 surmise could have been a possibility 609 00:30:27,710 --> 00:30:25,500 and then also the committee that could 610 00:30:34,940 --> 00:30:27,720 have been created after that alleged 611 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:34,950 incident well and Cal cor pointed this 612 00:30:40,220 --> 00:30:36,930 out and other researchers have pointed 613 00:30:43,970 --> 00:30:40,230 out and even the Air Force wrote a phone 614 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:43,980 book sized report asserting that the 615 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:47,130 Roswell debris was probably that from a 616 00:30:54,970 --> 00:30:49,970 mogul balloon and we're talking about 617 00:30:58,730 --> 00:30:54,980 remnants of neoprene and balsa wood and 618 00:31:02,510 --> 00:30:58,740 tape with flowers on it and things like 619 00:31:04,970 --> 00:31:02,520 that well there's a certain kind of a 620 00:31:08,420 --> 00:31:04,980 personality that we run into sometimes 621 00:31:11,150 --> 00:31:08,430 in the UFO field and and that that is 622 00:31:14,420 --> 00:31:11,160 the kind of person that decides they 623 00:31:16,490 --> 00:31:14,430 want to see a UFO and calque Worf made 624 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:16,500 the argument that Jesse Marcel had a 625 00:31:23,390 --> 00:31:19,410 record of exaggerating his service 626 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:23,400 record and he was known as as kind of a 627 00:31:31,250 --> 00:31:26,250 person who liked to tell tall tales 628 00:31:34,130 --> 00:31:31,260 I was theorizing that was it possible 629 00:31:36,770 --> 00:31:34,140 that a Jesse Marcel did see what he saw 630 00:31:38,630 --> 00:31:36,780 he collected the debris that he had it 631 00:31:41,570 --> 00:31:38,640 was actually debris baby 632 00:31:43,930 --> 00:31:41,580 it was debris from a balloon but there 633 00:31:46,550 --> 00:31:43,940 was this incredible coincidence that 634 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:46,560 concurrently there had been an actual 635 00:31:54,260 --> 00:31:50,370 saucer crash at another location in I 636 00:31:57,650 --> 00:31:54,270 believe southwest of Corona now as a 637 00:31:59,210 --> 00:31:57,660 result of that Jesse Marcel is coming 638 00:32:01,590 --> 00:31:59,220 back to the base where this debris 639 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:01,600 saying he found a flying 640 00:32:08,159 --> 00:32:05,530 saucer meanwhile concurrently there one 641 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:08,169 an actual saucer crash and somehow the 642 00:32:13,279 --> 00:32:10,690 story got to the press there in Roswell 643 00:32:20,039 --> 00:32:13,289 and you get this big blown-up headline 644 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:20,049 Army Air Force recovers UFO so and given 645 00:32:25,020 --> 00:32:21,970 that and given the fact that a couple of 646 00:32:26,730 --> 00:32:25,030 days later they had to go out to Fort 647 00:32:28,830 --> 00:32:26,740 Worth and claim that it was just a 648 00:32:32,250 --> 00:32:28,840 weather balloon maybe it was a big 649 00:32:35,130 --> 00:32:32,260 comedy of errors and maybe the fact that 650 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:35,140 an actual saucer was recovered was 651 00:32:40,799 --> 00:32:37,570 obscured by the these other comedies of 652 00:32:42,870 --> 00:32:40,809 errors I don't know it's just it's just 653 00:32:45,330 --> 00:32:42,880 something like that occurred to me a few 654 00:32:49,260 --> 00:32:45,340 days ago and I I can't help but wonder 655 00:32:50,399 --> 00:32:49,270 if something like that didn't happen I'm 656 00:32:53,970 --> 00:32:50,409 glad you were able to bring it up 657 00:33:00,180 --> 00:32:53,980 because anything is possible 658 00:33:02,220 --> 00:33:00,190 annal so it's really important to use to 659 00:33:05,399 --> 00:33:02,230 think about the creative possibilities 660 00:33:07,890 --> 00:33:05,409 of what things could have things that 661 00:33:10,169 --> 00:33:07,900 could have occurred so oh yeah let me 662 00:33:13,169 --> 00:33:10,179 let me jump in here real quick and ask 663 00:33:14,970 --> 00:33:13,179 Tom a quick question now one document 664 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:14,980 that you know a little bit about you 665 00:33:21,090 --> 00:33:18,250 said that you pulled the original at the 666 00:33:23,220 --> 00:33:21,100 archives and that is the Cutler twining 667 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:23,230 memo and it looks like I've got at least 668 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:25,690 a piece of it up now and can you tell 669 00:33:29,490 --> 00:33:27,250 the folks a little bit about that that 670 00:33:32,730 --> 00:33:29,500 it that is nobody questions that's a 671 00:33:36,870 --> 00:33:32,740 legitimate memo is that about right well 672 00:33:38,970 --> 00:33:36,880 actually they do and here's the here's 673 00:33:42,990 --> 00:33:38,980 the interesting thing the color twining 674 00:33:48,510 --> 00:33:43,000 memo is a document that is allegedly was 675 00:33:52,620 --> 00:33:48,520 allegedly written by Robert Cutler's 676 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:52,630 assistant while Robert Cutler was out of 677 00:33:59,810 --> 00:33:55,450 the country and it was instructing 678 00:34:03,419 --> 00:33:59,820 general twining concerning an mj-12 679 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:03,429 special studies projects meeting that it 680 00:34:10,109 --> 00:34:06,130 would occur during the regular meeting 681 00:34:11,909 --> 00:34:10,119 with President Eisenhower that day it's 682 00:34:15,599 --> 00:34:11,919 coming back to me now 683 00:34:17,549 --> 00:34:15,609 this is one where the the skeptic the 684 00:34:20,339 --> 00:34:17,559 skeptical point of view would be that 685 00:34:23,129 --> 00:34:20,349 somebody went into the archives and slip 686 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:23,139 this in among the paperwork is that 687 00:34:26,069 --> 00:34:24,490 about right do I remember the story 688 00:34:26,609 --> 00:34:26,079 correctly it's been about a decade for 689 00:34:29,069 --> 00:34:26,619 me now 690 00:34:32,579 --> 00:34:29,079 yes and that's where it gets interesting 691 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:32,589 because when I pulled this document at 692 00:34:38,789 --> 00:34:34,450 the National Archives there is a 693 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:38,799 memorandum attached from the supervising 694 00:34:43,950 --> 00:34:41,770 archivist at the time and it's a 695 00:34:46,289 --> 00:34:43,960 two-page memorandum giving all the 696 00:34:49,139 --> 00:34:46,299 reasons why they suspected that the 697 00:34:52,740 --> 00:34:49,149 cover 20 memo was not authentic that it 698 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:52,750 was fake okay and and I actually was 699 00:34:59,309 --> 00:34:55,450 able to have lunch with the supervising 700 00:35:02,010 --> 00:34:59,319 orc archivist that was in charge at the 701 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:02,020 time and and that was involved in in the 702 00:35:09,270 --> 00:35:05,290 the sequence of events and we went over 703 00:35:13,140 --> 00:35:09,280 different possibilities the common sense 704 00:35:16,079 --> 00:35:13,150 conclusion that I came to that based on 705 00:35:19,410 --> 00:35:16,089 that person's input was that someone 706 00:35:23,240 --> 00:35:19,420 probably entered the the National 707 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:23,250 Archives as a researcher pulled that 708 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:26,650 particular box and inserted it into the 709 00:35:33,210 --> 00:35:29,770 box now the reason why I say that is a 710 00:35:35,670 --> 00:35:33,220 couple of reasons in discussing it with 711 00:35:39,809 --> 00:35:35,680 the supervising archivist this person 712 00:35:42,420 --> 00:35:39,819 was adamant that that document would not 713 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:42,430 have been inserted in the back room in 714 00:35:46,980 --> 00:35:44,170 other words where the documents were 715 00:35:49,370 --> 00:35:46,990 being organized and archived and that 716 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:49,380 person was pretty adamant about that 717 00:35:55,559 --> 00:35:52,930 secondly the security at the National 718 00:36:00,480 --> 00:35:55,569 Archives back then was not as tight as 719 00:36:02,849 --> 00:36:00,490 it is now and so that lends the 720 00:36:05,220 --> 00:36:02,859 possibility that a person may have been 721 00:36:07,319 --> 00:36:05,230 in - may have been able to walk in to 722 00:36:09,059 --> 00:36:07,329 their with a document you know and 723 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:09,069 insert it into the box 724 00:36:14,039 --> 00:36:12,010 and from the point of being being a 725 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:14,049 researcher rather than some Air Force 726 00:36:18,870 --> 00:36:16,450 person putting it in there you know 727 00:36:23,510 --> 00:36:18,880 behind scenes understood that that's a 728 00:36:28,210 --> 00:36:25,900 and you know I I get our 729 00:36:29,559 --> 00:36:28,220 right when I hear about sandy Berger you 730 00:36:30,940 --> 00:36:29,569 know taking documents out of the 731 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:30,950 National Archives that's right that's 732 00:36:40,510 --> 00:36:32,530 right you got into some trouble for that 733 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:40,520 well but not enough and so that leads us 734 00:36:44,770 --> 00:36:42,770 on to another topic but if you still 735 00:36:46,930 --> 00:36:44,780 want to reverse engineer up the list 736 00:36:49,870 --> 00:36:46,940 again that's fine but I wanted to 737 00:36:52,539 --> 00:36:49,880 mention something interesting that I 738 00:36:54,549 --> 00:36:52,549 wanted to talk with you tonight that you 739 00:36:57,190 --> 00:36:54,559 you asked us to cover and that is 740 00:36:59,200 --> 00:36:57,200 disinformation in psyops and and that 741 00:37:02,109 --> 00:36:59,210 kind of leads me that's a good segue to 742 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:02,119 this disinformation topic because it's 743 00:37:09,670 --> 00:37:05,930 quite in it's quite possible that that 744 00:37:12,339 --> 00:37:09,680 series of documents or file or whatever 745 00:37:16,420 --> 00:37:12,349 you want to categorize it as may have 746 00:37:20,529 --> 00:37:16,430 been inserted in there as a means for 747 00:37:23,230 --> 00:37:20,539 disinformation not just by a private 748 00:37:26,079 --> 00:37:23,240 citizen but possibly by a government 749 00:37:30,059 --> 00:37:26,089 agent what are your thoughts on the 750 00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:30,069 possibility of that do you think that 751 00:37:37,930 --> 00:37:34,910 that documentation was was manipulated 752 00:37:40,269 --> 00:37:37,940 into the archives it slipped in there in 753 00:37:42,250 --> 00:37:40,279 that manner by a private citizen or by a 754 00:37:47,529 --> 00:37:42,260 government agent what are your thoughts 755 00:37:50,799 --> 00:37:47,539 on that Tom well I I don't know I just 756 00:37:54,460 --> 00:37:50,809 don't know now know it's it's hard to 757 00:37:57,579 --> 00:37:54,470 believe that just some random hoax or 758 00:38:00,609 --> 00:37:57,589 went in there and did it and the reason 759 00:38:03,730 --> 00:38:00,619 is in assuming that bill Moore's telling 760 00:38:05,980 --> 00:38:03,740 the truth about this but in his mj-12 761 00:38:08,710 --> 00:38:05,990 documents an analytical report and in 762 00:38:11,740 --> 00:38:08,720 other ways he's described how he had 763 00:38:14,410 --> 00:38:11,750 been receiving a series of postcards in 764 00:38:16,720 --> 00:38:14,420 the mail and these postcards were giving 765 00:38:18,519 --> 00:38:16,730 hints about finding this particular 766 00:38:21,039 --> 00:38:18,529 document in the National Archives 767 00:38:24,460 --> 00:38:21,049 they're hints about Reese's Pieces and 768 00:38:27,730 --> 00:38:24,470 there was an archivist there by the name 769 00:38:32,279 --> 00:38:27,740 of Reece and there were some other hints 770 00:38:37,180 --> 00:38:32,289 they were cryptic type eons and then 771 00:38:39,820 --> 00:38:37,190 they were on Warren James pulled the 772 00:38:43,060 --> 00:38:39,830 color 20 memo then these 773 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:43,070 made sense so there's some kind of 774 00:38:47,380 --> 00:38:45,050 intrigue going on somehow yeah yeah I 775 00:38:49,900 --> 00:38:47,390 certainly don't know the ultimate answer 776 00:38:52,090 --> 00:38:49,910 to that and now bill Moore has stated in 777 00:38:54,550 --> 00:38:52,100 his own book that there's more to that 778 00:38:58,240 --> 00:38:54,560 story but he as far as I know he hasn't 779 00:39:00,730 --> 00:38:58,250 told more details about it now as far as 780 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:00,740 this information goes there are several 781 00:39:07,210 --> 00:39:04,610 things that are going on on the internet 782 00:39:10,830 --> 00:39:07,220 you will find a quote or an assertion 783 00:39:14,950 --> 00:39:10,840 that Ron Pandolfi who was with his CIA 784 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:14,960 stated in the 1970s that the CIA had 785 00:39:20,290 --> 00:39:17,210 received indications that the Soviets 786 00:39:22,720 --> 00:39:20,300 were going to use UFO researchers to 787 00:39:26,830 --> 00:39:22,730 penetrate the US military industrial 788 00:39:29,980 --> 00:39:26,840 complex so it's there's a possibility in 789 00:39:33,550 --> 00:39:29,990 terms of disinformation and psyops 790 00:39:35,740 --> 00:39:33,560 and manipulation that some or perhaps 791 00:39:39,610 --> 00:39:35,750 all of the mj-12 affair in the eighties 792 00:39:44,290 --> 00:39:39,620 was designed to deal with this problem 793 00:39:48,130 --> 00:39:44,300 and Richard Doty himself has stated that 794 00:39:50,290 --> 00:39:48,140 in intelligence operatives women within 795 00:39:53,860 --> 00:39:50,300 the government had been tasked with 796 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:53,870 developing two to three contacts each in 797 00:39:58,800 --> 00:39:55,610 the UFO community they want to know 798 00:40:01,120 --> 00:39:58,810 what's going on I know an interesting 799 00:40:03,100 --> 00:40:01,130 sidelight to this is that in the 800 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:03,110 Benowitz affair and again I'm quoting 801 00:40:06,580 --> 00:40:04,130 Richard Doty 802 00:40:09,610 --> 00:40:06,590 he stated that one of the complications 803 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:09,620 in the bennewitz affair was that miss 804 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:11,810 Rabinowitz had a business by the name of 805 00:40:16,540 --> 00:40:14,330 thunder scientific and that one of his 806 00:40:21,130 --> 00:40:16,550 employees had been spotted near the 807 00:40:23,830 --> 00:40:21,140 Soviet embassy in Mexico City so the FBI 808 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:23,840 was involved in this and there were 809 00:40:31,180 --> 00:40:27,410 there espionage may encounter espionage 810 00:40:34,030 --> 00:40:31,190 elements to to the situation at the same 811 00:40:36,130 --> 00:40:34,040 time concurrently there was development 812 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:36,140 of stealth aircraft there was the 813 00:40:40,390 --> 00:40:37,610 development of the stealth fighter and 814 00:40:41,860 --> 00:40:40,400 stealth bomber and before they were made 815 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:41,870 public 816 00:40:46,060 --> 00:40:44,210 they had extremely tight security on 817 00:40:47,740 --> 00:40:46,070 these so I think there's another 818 00:40:50,950 --> 00:40:47,750 possibility that some of the mj-12 819 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:50,960 affair may be he related that to that in 820 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:52,610 order to divert 821 00:40:58,000 --> 00:40:54,650 people's attention away from classified 822 00:41:02,220 --> 00:40:58,010 programs okay and regarding the twining 823 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:02,230 document wanted to ask if there was any 824 00:41:08,380 --> 00:41:06,050 scientific analysis done to anyone's 825 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:08,390 satisfaction including Stanton Friedman 826 00:41:16,300 --> 00:41:13,610 and yourself and others who really 827 00:41:18,250 --> 00:41:16,310 studied the mj-12 documents regarding 828 00:41:23,430 --> 00:41:18,260 comparisons of style for authentication 829 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:23,440 such as penmanship cultural phrasing of 830 00:41:30,460 --> 00:41:26,810 any kind of clues or hints that would 831 00:41:32,980 --> 00:41:30,470 lend towards piecing together who could 832 00:41:36,610 --> 00:41:32,990 have put this document or documents 833 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:36,620 together was there any physical evidence 834 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:40,130 anything that would detect the author 835 00:41:44,670 --> 00:41:42,770 original authors regarding who could 836 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:44,680 have put that documentation together 837 00:41:51,250 --> 00:41:47,770 that's a good question champ and 838 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:51,260 forensic work has been done I don't feel 839 00:41:56,290 --> 00:41:53,690 qualified at this moment really to get 840 00:41:59,500 --> 00:41:56,300 in into any detail about the forensic 841 00:42:02,490 --> 00:41:59,510 work and you can make arguments both 842 00:42:06,100 --> 00:42:02,500 ways now one of the complaints about the 843 00:42:08,650 --> 00:42:06,110 Cutler xx memo is is it's not so it's 844 00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:08,660 not signed and stay in Freedmen's made 845 00:42:13,030 --> 00:42:10,610 the argument that that cover was out of 846 00:42:14,830 --> 00:42:13,040 the out of the country at that time and 847 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:14,840 there are other objections that come 848 00:42:20,290 --> 00:42:17,690 about and these are actually detailed in 849 00:42:22,810 --> 00:42:20,300 in the attached memorandum which is 850 00:42:25,420 --> 00:42:22,820 actually next to the actual document in 851 00:42:27,070 --> 00:42:25,430 the archive box if you go into the 852 00:42:28,660 --> 00:42:27,080 National Archives and have the box 853 00:42:30,820 --> 00:42:28,670 pulled it you pull that document there's 854 00:42:34,210 --> 00:42:30,830 there is this memorandum attached to it 855 00:42:36,580 --> 00:42:34,220 and I joked I joked with the supervising 856 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:36,590 archivist about this that it's probably 857 00:42:41,050 --> 00:42:38,090 the only document in the National 858 00:42:44,310 --> 00:42:41,060 Archives that has memorandum attached to 859 00:42:47,350 --> 00:42:44,320 it telling you that it's probably fate 860 00:42:51,460 --> 00:42:47,360 understood okay and if folks want to 861 00:42:54,220 --> 00:42:51,470 read a little bit more about the mj-12 862 00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:54,230 documents just as additional reading 863 00:43:01,390 --> 00:42:57,010 they can actually go to stan friedman 864 00:43:05,410 --> 00:43:01,400 dot-com to read more on his perspectives 865 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:08,330 that he wrote exhaustively about and 866 00:43:13,550 --> 00:43:10,770 then also wanted to mention that the FBI 867 00:43:16,370 --> 00:43:13,560 has its own archives as Tom knows very 868 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:16,380 well in its vault if you were actually 869 00:43:23,390 --> 00:43:20,130 typing Google FBI mj-12 Docs you will 870 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:23,400 see a link that leads you straight - I 871 00:43:30,950 --> 00:43:26,010 think maybe eight or twelve pages of the 872 00:43:37,670 --> 00:43:30,960 mj-12 Docs there now I noticed that the 873 00:43:41,690 --> 00:43:37,680 FBI titled those mj-12 Docs that it had 874 00:43:42,890 --> 00:43:41,700 in its archives as not being real do you 875 00:43:46,210 --> 00:43:42,900 have anything you want to share 876 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:46,220 regarding any input on the FBI having 877 00:43:50,050 --> 00:43:48,810 stated that and its archives about the 878 00:43:54,020 --> 00:43:50,060 mj-12 Docs 879 00:43:56,270 --> 00:43:54,030 well when the documents became public it 880 00:43:58,880 --> 00:43:56,280 did cause quite a firestorm of 881 00:44:02,360 --> 00:43:58,890 controversy and I think there was even a 882 00:44:06,410 --> 00:44:02,370 segment on on Nightline about it and the 883 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:06,420 FBI did undertake an investigation they 884 00:44:11,690 --> 00:44:08,610 wanted to find out if the documents were 885 00:44:14,990 --> 00:44:11,700 genuine if there was an mj-12 group who 886 00:44:16,820 --> 00:44:15,000 possibly created the documents and they 887 00:44:18,170 --> 00:44:16,830 went around to various departments and I 888 00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:18,180 think they came to the conclusion that 889 00:44:22,670 --> 00:44:20,250 they couldn't find any evidence either 890 00:44:26,300 --> 00:44:22,680 for mj-12 but they also couldn't 891 00:44:28,430 --> 00:44:26,310 determine who who forged the documents 892 00:44:31,730 --> 00:44:28,440 now one of the things they did was they 893 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:31,740 sent it to the Air Force they sent them 894 00:44:36,500 --> 00:44:34,050 to the Air Force and the Air Force wrote 895 00:44:37,970 --> 00:44:36,510 bogus and big letters across and if you 896 00:44:41,630 --> 00:44:37,980 go on the internet and look into this 897 00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:41,640 you'll see it and that makes me wonder 898 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:43,770 how would they be so sure that they're 899 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:47,010 bogus if they didn't have something to 900 00:44:53,930 --> 00:44:52,050 do with their creation and they 901 00:44:57,350 --> 00:44:53,940 automatically write bogus over there so 902 00:44:59,030 --> 00:44:57,360 how they or that's a question or they 903 00:45:00,620 --> 00:44:59,040 just knew one of their guys did it while 904 00:45:03,130 --> 00:45:00,630 he was kind of freelancing on that 905 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:03,140 company time and they kind of knew yeah 906 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:07,650 yeah I wanted to bring up a quote that 907 00:45:13,340 --> 00:45:10,290 actually Carl Sagan said regarding 908 00:45:15,770 --> 00:45:13,350 topics I've learned tonight and that is 909 00:45:18,500 --> 00:45:15,780 on Stanton Friedman calm regarding the 910 00:45:21,830 --> 00:45:18,510 Cutler twining memo and a little 911 00:45:24,620 --> 00:45:21,840 more on a few other topics and that is 912 00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:24,630 I'll go ahead and start reading 913 00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:28,170 I'll start the quote from Stan 914 00:45:36,110 --> 00:45:32,130 Friedman's website in in his writing he 915 00:45:37,730 --> 00:45:36,120 said for example Carl Sagan said here's 916 00:45:39,860 --> 00:45:37,740 the beginning of the Carl Sagan quote 917 00:45:43,940 --> 00:45:39,870 the Air Force says the documents are 918 00:45:46,460 --> 00:45:43,950 bogus and UFO expert Philip J class and 919 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:46,470 others find lexicographic and 920 00:45:50,330 --> 00:45:49,410 consistencies that suggests the whole 921 00:45:52,610 --> 00:45:50,340 thing is a hoax 922 00:45:54,110 --> 00:45:52,620 end of quote and then Friedman goes on 923 00:45:57,130 --> 00:45:54,120 to say he seems to be unaware of the 924 00:45:59,540 --> 00:45:57,140 fact that class had paid me a hundred a 925 00:46:02,780 --> 00:45:59,550 thousand dollars for providing more than 926 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:02,790 14 documents done exactly the same Hika 927 00:46:08,330 --> 00:46:05,490 typeface as the cutler twining memo 928 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:08,340 though class on the basis of nine elite 929 00:46:13,850 --> 00:46:11,850 typeface documents obtained by him by 930 00:46:18,350 --> 00:46:13,860 mail he had never been to the Ike 931 00:46:20,870 --> 00:46:18,360 library of the 250,000 pages of NSC 932 00:46:23,210 --> 00:46:20,880 material at the Ike library had insisted 933 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:23,220 the CTM should have been done in elite 934 00:46:29,300 --> 00:46:25,650 he's talking about fonts I think some 935 00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:29,310 lexicographic research that's Stan 936 00:46:33,590 --> 00:46:31,130 Friedman being facetious there our 937 00:46:36,890 --> 00:46:33,600 correspondence and a copy of his check 938 00:46:38,420 --> 00:46:36,900 to me are in reference number two so I 939 00:46:41,780 --> 00:46:38,430 just thought that was interesting that 940 00:46:43,850 --> 00:46:41,790 he said those things and of course Stan 941 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:43,860 Friedman gets very specific regarding 942 00:46:48,650 --> 00:46:46,170 typeface fonts and things like that 943 00:46:50,270 --> 00:46:48,660 regarding the cutler twining memo he 944 00:46:52,780 --> 00:46:50,280 tried to get his forensic as he could 945 00:46:59,180 --> 00:46:55,850 yes and the copy that's in the National 946 00:47:00,560 --> 00:46:59,190 Archives is is an actual document it's 947 00:47:03,770 --> 00:47:00,570 not a photocopy 948 00:47:07,310 --> 00:47:03,780 now the other mj-12 documents that Moore 949 00:47:09,590 --> 00:47:07,320 received were were photographs of 950 00:47:11,810 --> 00:47:09,600 documents so he didn't have the 951 00:47:14,090 --> 00:47:11,820 originals whereas the Cutler's whitey 952 00:47:16,010 --> 00:47:14,100 memo and it's interesting because the 953 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:16,020 typeface on the memo was is actually 954 00:47:22,190 --> 00:47:19,050 blue rather than black that's 955 00:47:24,290 --> 00:47:22,200 interesting then I wanted to actually 956 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:24,300 let me if you don't mind my randomly 957 00:47:30,350 --> 00:47:26,810 asking you something Philip J Klaus 958 00:47:32,300 --> 00:47:30,360 actually created a very in my in my 959 00:47:35,690 --> 00:47:32,310 opinion from my perspective very 960 00:47:38,720 --> 00:47:35,700 bad reputation for himself amongst UFO 961 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:38,730 serious UFO researchers who were giving 962 00:47:44,030 --> 00:47:41,130 the UFO topic the benefit of the doubt 963 00:47:46,100 --> 00:47:44,040 which we know Claus did the exact 964 00:47:50,540 --> 00:47:46,110 opposite of what was your personal 965 00:47:52,730 --> 00:47:50,550 perspective of class and his his type of 966 00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:52,740 research and investigative methods and 967 00:47:59,170 --> 00:47:55,290 the reputation he created for himself 968 00:48:03,740 --> 00:47:59,180 did he earn it how do you feel about his 969 00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:03,750 about him in general well I got into the 970 00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:06,930 UFO field actively when Phil class was 971 00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:09,210 pretty much at the end of his career and 972 00:48:18,050 --> 00:48:13,650 he died not too long after I became 973 00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:18,060 active in the 1990s but he is actually 974 00:48:22,700 --> 00:48:20,370 quite a good journalist he was quite a 975 00:48:24,910 --> 00:48:22,710 good investigative journalist in the 976 00:48:27,830 --> 00:48:24,920 aerospace field he was very highly 977 00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:27,840 regarded and thought of in the 978 00:48:33,530 --> 00:48:31,050 journalistic profession that he was in 979 00:48:36,260 --> 00:48:33,540 but for some reason when it came to UFOs 980 00:48:38,930 --> 00:48:36,270 it didn't matter what how good the case 981 00:48:41,510 --> 00:48:38,940 was he would debunk it and he would 982 00:48:43,850 --> 00:48:41,520 always find a reason to debunk it and 983 00:48:45,890 --> 00:48:43,860 that makes you wonder if he's some kind 984 00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:45,900 of an agent and I know it's tempting for 985 00:48:50,930 --> 00:48:48,450 UFO people to think that way he may not 986 00:48:53,420 --> 00:48:50,940 have been he it may have just been that 987 00:48:57,230 --> 00:48:53,430 he was inclined to think that way and 988 00:49:01,460 --> 00:48:57,240 maybe was encouraged you know behind 989 00:49:04,370 --> 00:49:01,470 scenes subtly but there's a real 990 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:04,380 disconnect there because if he was had 991 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:07,410 been as prejudiced and is biased in his 992 00:49:11,450 --> 00:49:10,290 regular journalistic reporting I don't 993 00:49:13,340 --> 00:49:11,460 think he would have had as good a 994 00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:13,350 reputation as he had yeah he was 995 00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:15,690 involved in aviation a week he was 996 00:49:18,910 --> 00:49:17,610 either the editor or the publisher maybe 997 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:18,920 both is that about right 998 00:49:29,090 --> 00:49:25,170 yes Aviation Week editor okay yeah he 999 00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:29,100 certainly had a hatred apparently for 1000 00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:32,970 the the topic of UFOs and other 1001 00:49:38,090 --> 00:49:35,610 phenomena and he certainly didn't give 1002 00:49:41,180 --> 00:49:38,100 it the kind of attention it deserved I 1003 00:49:43,820 --> 00:49:41,190 think from from a judicious kind of 1004 00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:43,830 perspective as a true researcher would 1005 00:49:47,750 --> 00:49:46,170 from my perspective 1006 00:49:51,109 --> 00:49:47,760 did want to mention the organization's 1007 00:49:53,630 --> 00:49:51,119 he was affiliated with and that is the 1008 00:49:55,250 --> 00:49:53,640 Institute of Electrical and Electronics 1009 00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:55,260 Engineers American Association for the 1010 00:49:59,319 --> 00:49:57,450 Advancement of science Aviation space 1011 00:50:03,670 --> 00:49:59,329 Writers Association National Press Club 1012 00:50:08,029 --> 00:50:03,680 national aviation Club and another 1013 00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:08,039 organization that's acronym is CSI COP a 1014 00:50:18,789 --> 00:50:16,170 lot of people in the UFO community they 1015 00:50:22,390 --> 00:50:18,799 called him at disinformation and 1016 00:50:25,940 --> 00:50:22,400 government agent I'm not sure if that's 1017 00:50:27,289 --> 00:50:25,950 if that that would be correct because I 1018 00:50:30,620 --> 00:50:27,299 don't like throwing that term around 1019 00:50:34,069 --> 00:50:30,630 about people but he was very quick to 1020 00:50:35,539 --> 00:50:34,079 call people frauds before actually doing 1021 00:50:37,370 --> 00:50:35,549 any research on them and my 1022 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:37,380 understanding of how he me of research 1023 00:50:44,450 --> 00:50:41,970 people is he may have tried to do really 1024 00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:44,460 deep background research on people that 1025 00:50:49,579 --> 00:50:47,010 may not really have been necessary for 1026 00:50:51,620 --> 00:50:49,589 the kinds of topics they were studying 1027 00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:51,630 or doing research on he said some 1028 00:50:56,859 --> 00:50:53,490 horrible things regarding the people 1029 00:51:03,259 --> 00:50:56,869 regarding Lonnie Zamora in the Socorro 1030 00:51:06,829 --> 00:51:03,269 1964 case so I'm moving along here I 1031 00:51:11,740 --> 00:51:06,839 wanted to ask you a little bit about the 1032 00:51:14,870 --> 00:51:11,750 Timothy Cooper documents if that's okay 1033 00:51:16,759 --> 00:51:14,880 if we could covered that topic do you 1034 00:51:19,339 --> 00:51:16,769 mind giving us sort of an introduction 1035 00:51:22,789 --> 00:51:19,349 to that topic and giving us kind of a 1036 00:51:26,329 --> 00:51:22,799 summary of what it is about Timothy 1037 00:51:31,279 --> 00:51:26,339 Cooper to this day as an independent UFO 1038 00:51:32,859 --> 00:51:31,289 researcher he is has been recently you 1039 00:51:37,190 --> 00:51:32,869 know and over the years 1040 00:51:39,740 --> 00:51:37,200 filing a number of foi a requests with 1041 00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:39,750 the government now in the nineties he 1042 00:51:47,299 --> 00:51:43,410 began receiving documents from a source 1043 00:51:49,670 --> 00:51:47,309 that he termed thomas can't wheel which 1044 00:51:53,150 --> 00:51:49,680 is a code name we don't know who the 1045 00:51:58,099 --> 00:51:53,160 actual person was he had another source 1046 00:51:59,810 --> 00:51:58,109 that you referred to as s2 and most of 1047 00:52:04,490 --> 00:51:59,820 the documents that he 1048 00:52:07,490 --> 00:52:04,500 sieved are on the Majestic documents 1049 00:52:12,410 --> 00:52:07,500 website that the woods have produced a 1050 00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:12,420 majestic documents calm and you can go 1051 00:52:20,270 --> 00:52:15,210 on there and see a lot of the documents 1052 00:52:23,270 --> 00:52:20,280 that he has received now he had been 1053 00:52:26,060 --> 00:52:23,280 accused like so many people seem to be 1054 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:26,070 accused of hoaxing you know one or more 1055 00:52:32,890 --> 00:52:28,890 of the documents for example and Stanton 1056 00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:32,900 Friedman rejected the the whole group 1057 00:52:37,940 --> 00:52:35,490 Timothy four documents he he wouldn't 1058 00:52:40,490 --> 00:52:37,950 even deal with it because he started 1059 00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:40,500 checking in to him he found one document 1060 00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:43,170 that had a section that had been copied 1061 00:52:48,350 --> 00:52:46,410 out of the book verbatim or copied 1062 00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:48,360 verbatim from another document in these 1063 00:52:53,980 --> 00:52:52,050 documents had obviously been altered but 1064 00:52:57,830 --> 00:52:53,990 at the same time there are there are 1065 00:53:00,530 --> 00:52:57,840 reports and white-hot reports and so on 1066 00:53:03,530 --> 00:53:00,540 and so forth that the content of which 1067 00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:03,540 is extremely intriguing some of the 1068 00:53:10,130 --> 00:53:07,010 documents have obvious typos 1069 00:53:13,970 --> 00:53:10,140 misspellings so on and so forth and they 1070 00:53:16,910 --> 00:53:13,980 appear to be in draft form timothy 1071 00:53:19,970 --> 00:53:16,920 cooper has I believe undergone at least 1072 00:53:23,810 --> 00:53:19,980 one lie-detector test and I believe that 1073 00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:23,820 he failed it and the reason they that he 1074 00:53:32,210 --> 00:53:26,930 gave was he was protecting his sources 1075 00:53:35,720 --> 00:53:32,220 so but in terms of the bulk in terms of 1076 00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:35,730 the volume of mj-12 related documents 1077 00:53:42,500 --> 00:53:37,770 most of them come from the timothy 1078 00:53:45,170 --> 00:53:42,510 cooper segment now which group did the 1079 00:53:46,970 --> 00:53:45,180 Eisenhower briefing document come in it 1080 00:53:48,830 --> 00:53:46,980 was at in the first grouping that went 1081 00:53:50,930 --> 00:53:48,840 to shandur a or did it go to Cooper yeah 1082 00:53:53,210 --> 00:53:50,940 you know that was the first group and 1083 00:53:54,740 --> 00:53:53,220 yeah it was yeah why don't you tell the 1084 00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:54,750 folks a little bit about that one that 1085 00:53:59,270 --> 00:53:57,450 that is one that I think Friedman 1086 00:54:01,400 --> 00:53:59,280 thought was the most credible of all the 1087 00:54:03,670 --> 00:54:01,410 documents I if that's about right I'm 1088 00:54:07,670 --> 00:54:03,680 not sure but I do know it's interesting 1089 00:54:12,110 --> 00:54:07,680 yeah and it's it was allegedly a 1090 00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:12,120 briefing for President Eisenhower it's 1091 00:54:21,620 --> 00:54:14,090 dated November 8th 1092 00:54:24,470 --> 00:54:21,630 19:52 and it outlines the Roswell 1093 00:54:28,490 --> 00:54:24,480 recovery you know it refers to another 1094 00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:28,500 crash at El Indio Guerrero and on the 1095 00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:32,010 Banco side of the border and it 1096 00:54:37,010 --> 00:54:34,650 describes how the committee had been 1097 00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:37,020 formed to study this lists all the names 1098 00:54:45,050 --> 00:54:40,410 of the alleged mj-12 members it also 1099 00:54:46,940 --> 00:54:45,060 includes a list of appendices or 1100 00:54:49,490 --> 00:54:46,950 attachments now it doesn't have the 1101 00:54:52,180 --> 00:54:49,500 actual attachments with the document but 1102 00:54:57,140 --> 00:54:52,190 it has something of an index of those 1103 00:55:00,940 --> 00:54:57,150 the date format was a point of great 1104 00:55:03,010 --> 00:55:00,950 controversy because in your typical 1105 00:55:06,980 --> 00:55:03,020 government document 1106 00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:06,990 let's see what's today the 23rd yes you 1107 00:55:18,980 --> 00:55:12,050 would you'd see 23 space january space 1108 00:55:21,770 --> 00:55:18,990 2020 that's standard government date 1109 00:55:24,710 --> 00:55:21,780 format on the Eisenhower briefing 1110 00:55:28,970 --> 00:55:24,720 document it would have been 23 January 1111 00:55:31,690 --> 00:55:28,980 comma 2020 and this this really tipped 1112 00:55:34,940 --> 00:55:31,700 researchers off that this this wasn't 1113 00:55:36,710 --> 00:55:34,950 standard form there are other objections 1114 00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:36,720 there are numerous objections to the 1115 00:55:42,830 --> 00:55:38,930 Eisenhower briefing document for example 1116 00:55:47,750 --> 00:55:42,840 the ranking that's listed for example on 1117 00:55:50,450 --> 00:55:47,760 on on for Helen Keller Admiral Helen 1118 00:55:53,660 --> 00:55:50,460 Keller and so on and so forth so there 1119 00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:53,670 are a number of objections to it now I 1120 00:55:58,940 --> 00:55:55,770 want to point out something that I 1121 00:56:04,520 --> 00:55:58,950 turned up at my own research that has 1122 00:56:07,220 --> 00:56:04,530 really intrigued me and that is the date 1123 00:56:13,550 --> 00:56:07,230 of the Eisenhower briefing document is 1124 00:56:17,720 --> 00:56:13,560 November 18 1952 and I went through the 1125 00:56:21,980 --> 00:56:17,730 entire 1952 file of General Twinings 1126 00:56:24,770 --> 00:56:21,990 daily logs this is a kind of a boring 1127 00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:24,780 tedious process but ever in in getting 1128 00:56:29,630 --> 00:56:27,210 close to the end of the year 1129 00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:29,640 and I had this document posted on my on 1130 00:56:38,870 --> 00:56:33,090 my blog on The Daily Log general twining 1131 00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:38,880 Tuesday 18 November 1952 at the time at 1132 00:56:47,030 --> 00:56:43,410 1505 which which would have been 3:05 it 1133 00:56:50,240 --> 00:56:47,040 says to mr. Levitz office - - General 1134 00:56:51,710 --> 00:56:50,250 Eisenhower and I gave me a jolt 1135 00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:51,720 now it doesn't prove anything that's a 1136 00:56:55,430 --> 00:56:53,490 very interesting course yeah just just 1137 00:56:58,070 --> 00:56:55,440 that to fill in a little bit here a 1138 00:57:00,050 --> 00:56:58,080 little bit of background obviously at 1139 00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:00,060 the top of the month Eisenhower was 1140 00:57:04,310 --> 00:57:02,010 elected president so there would have 1141 00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:04,320 been some kind of a transition - to 1142 00:57:10,460 --> 00:57:07,050 prepare him to get inaugurated well in 1143 00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:10,470 January of early 53 I don't know I I 1144 00:57:14,420 --> 00:57:12,570 know in that those years sometimes the 1145 00:57:16,660 --> 00:57:14,430 president was inaugurated a little bit 1146 00:57:19,430 --> 00:57:16,670 later but probably yeah you know 1147 00:57:21,770 --> 00:57:19,440 basically a week and a half after he 1148 00:57:24,050 --> 00:57:21,780 gets elected you know he's obviously in 1149 00:57:26,210 --> 00:57:24,060 the process of transitioning into the 1150 00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:26,220 presidency so that he would have had a 1151 00:57:31,070 --> 00:57:28,890 lot of meetings with current military 1152 00:57:34,850 --> 00:57:31,080 that really shouldn't be surprising at 1153 00:57:36,710 --> 00:57:34,860 all no not itself except that it's the 1154 00:57:38,450 --> 00:57:36,720 same date as the Eisenhower briefing 1155 00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:38,460 document right and all right you know 1156 00:57:45,070 --> 00:57:41,970 that just that gave me a job and I 1157 00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:45,080 wanted to read just a little bit of 1158 00:57:53,650 --> 00:57:48,330 information regarding that period of 1159 00:57:56,090 --> 00:57:53,660 time which is around November 18 1952 1160 00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:56,100 regarding Truman in Eisenhower so I'm 1161 00:57:58,790 --> 00:57:57,210 just going to go ahead and read it it's 1162 00:58:03,020 --> 00:57:58,800 on CIA Gove's 1163 00:58:06,950 --> 00:58:03,030 a library's website and that is it says 1164 00:58:08,930 --> 00:58:06,960 on the 22nd of November 1952 the 1165 00:58:11,630 --> 00:58:08,940 newspapers reported that President Harry 1166 00:58:14,390 --> 00:58:11,640 Truman shortly after noon the previous 1167 00:58:17,740 --> 00:58:14,400 day had stolen away from the White House 1168 00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:17,750 to give an impromptu speech at the CIA 1169 00:58:22,700 --> 00:58:20,370 Truman had come to the CIA at the 1170 00:58:24,860 --> 00:58:22,710 invitation of the 4th Director of 1171 00:58:26,990 --> 00:58:24,870 Central Intelligence general Walter 1172 00:58:28,790 --> 00:58:27,000 Bedell Smith to address a training 1173 00:58:30,860 --> 00:58:28,800 course of government officials in that 1174 00:58:33,110 --> 00:58:30,870 speech delivered on a Friday afternoon 1175 00:58:35,300 --> 00:58:33,120 almost two weeks after the national 1176 00:58:37,790 --> 00:58:35,310 election Truman revealed a great deal 1177 00:58:40,130 --> 00:58:37,800 about his motives in founding the CIA 1178 00:58:41,090 --> 00:58:40,140 and his aims in having the agency 1179 00:58:43,610 --> 00:58:41,100 provide 1180 00:58:45,980 --> 00:58:43,620 intelligence briefings to the new 1181 00:58:49,730 --> 00:58:45,990 president-elect General Dwight 1182 00:58:52,190 --> 00:58:49,740 Eisenhower so that's just a little bit 1183 00:58:54,260 --> 00:58:52,200 of history regarding that exact period 1184 00:58:57,080 --> 00:58:54,270 of time yeah and a little bit about 1185 00:58:59,870 --> 00:58:57,090 Beetle Smith if anybody who's seen the 1186 00:59:01,550 --> 00:58:59,880 movie Patton now there's this a kind of 1187 00:59:04,940 --> 00:59:01,560 burly guy who at the behest of 1188 00:59:07,010 --> 00:59:04,950 Eisenhower is a basically reaming Patton 1189 00:59:09,170 --> 00:59:07,020 out throughout the course of the movie 1190 00:59:11,750 --> 00:59:09,180 that is Walter Bedell Smith he was 1191 00:59:14,450 --> 00:59:11,760 actually I became the head of the CIA 1192 00:59:16,010 --> 00:59:14,460 but he was actually Eisenhower's chief 1193 00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:16,020 of staff during out of the war in Europe 1194 00:59:20,570 --> 00:59:18,090 during World War two so a little bit 1195 00:59:22,130 --> 00:59:20,580 more history there the one I'm sorry and 1196 00:59:23,300 --> 00:59:22,140 thank you very much I'm sorry to 1197 00:59:25,340 --> 00:59:23,310 interject but he did want to mention 1198 00:59:28,580 --> 00:59:25,350 something about November 18th I'm gonna 1199 00:59:30,110 --> 00:59:28,590 hit share screen for my guest and Frank 1200 00:59:32,810 --> 00:59:30,120 to actually see what I'm looking at I 1201 00:59:35,870 --> 00:59:32,820 did include the link in our Skype chat 1202 00:59:37,490 --> 00:59:35,880 here so that Tom can do some research on 1203 00:59:40,730 --> 00:59:37,500 this later if he so desires 1204 00:59:44,540 --> 00:59:40,740 it says here regarding November 18th 1205 00:59:49,580 --> 00:59:44,550 in 1952 it says referring to a widely 1206 00:59:53,810 --> 00:59:49,590 publicized meeting he had held I believe 1207 00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:53,820 they're referring to Truman but we'll 1208 00:59:58,490 --> 00:59:56,250 have to double check on this referring 1209 01:00:00,530 --> 00:59:58,500 to a widely publicized meeting he had 1210 01:00:02,990 --> 01:00:00,540 held with Eisenhower at the White House 1211 01:00:05,900 --> 01:00:03,000 to discuss foreign policy issues earlier 1212 01:00:07,370 --> 01:00:05,910 that same week Truman said it was my 1213 01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:07,380 privilege a few days ago 1214 01:00:12,950 --> 01:00:11,010 on the 18th of November to brief the 1215 01:00:15,740 --> 01:00:12,960 general who was going to take over the 1216 01:00:17,750 --> 01:00:15,750 office on the 20th of January so I'm 1217 01:00:19,700 --> 01:00:17,760 just mentioning that November 18th date 1218 01:00:21,860 --> 01:00:19,710 there and then it goes on to say Truman 1219 01:00:23,780 --> 01:00:21,870 did not mention in his address that on 1220 01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:23,790 that occasion he had given Eisenhower a 1221 01:00:28,130 --> 01:00:25,650 comprehensive National Intelligence 1222 01:00:31,580 --> 01:00:28,140 digest prepared by the CIA 1223 01:00:33,950 --> 01:00:31,590 he'd to an NCS policy outline that 1224 01:00:35,780 --> 01:00:33,960 digest summarized in Smith's words the 1225 01:00:38,780 --> 01:00:35,790 most important National Intelligence on 1226 01:00:41,090 --> 01:00:38,790 a worldwide basis so that November 18th 1227 01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:41,100 date does pop up a few times in history 1228 01:00:45,830 --> 01:00:42,930 and maybe you might be able to correlate 1229 01:00:50,090 --> 01:00:45,840 that to some of your research anyway 1230 01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:50,100 just sign that anything and you know we 1231 01:00:53,690 --> 01:00:52,050 hear these rumors that several 1232 01:00:56,350 --> 01:00:53,700 presidents that the first thing they 1233 01:00:59,270 --> 01:00:56,360 wanted to know about was you 1234 01:01:02,450 --> 01:00:59,280 right now I wanted to mention something 1235 01:01:04,610 --> 01:01:02,460 about military intelligence and just a 1236 01:01:06,980 --> 01:01:04,620 tiny smattering of the history of it and 1237 01:01:09,230 --> 01:01:06,990 that is the military intelligence Corps 1238 01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:09,240 is the intelligence branch of the United 1239 01:01:14,390 --> 01:01:11,610 States Army and the primary mission of 1240 01:01:16,370 --> 01:01:14,400 the military intelligence in the US Army 1241 01:01:18,590 --> 01:01:16,380 is to provide timely relevant accurate 1242 01:01:21,050 --> 01:01:18,600 and synchronized intelligence and 1243 01:01:22,940 --> 01:01:21,060 electronic warfare support to tactical 1244 01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:22,950 operational and strategic level 1245 01:01:27,830 --> 01:01:25,490 commanders the Army's intelligence 1246 01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:27,840 components produce intelligence both for 1247 01:01:31,790 --> 01:01:29,490 army use and for sharing across the 1248 01:01:34,970 --> 01:01:31,800 national intelligence community now if 1249 01:01:39,260 --> 01:01:34,980 only it were just that but I suspect 1250 01:01:41,950 --> 01:01:39,270 that the US government I say this is a 1251 01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:41,960 big maybe I can't say this as an expert 1252 01:01:49,130 --> 01:01:46,770 but I suspect that as naive as it sounds 1253 01:01:51,830 --> 01:01:49,140 what I'm about to say that the US 1254 01:01:56,600 --> 01:01:51,840 government may covertly be involved in 1255 01:01:59,840 --> 01:01:56,610 actively creating propaganda around the 1256 01:02:01,550 --> 01:01:59,850 world even involving its own US citizens 1257 01:02:04,610 --> 01:02:01,560 which it has done in the past that's a 1258 01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:04,620 fact do you think they're still doing 1259 01:02:09,980 --> 01:02:06,810 that to this day regarding 1260 01:02:14,300 --> 01:02:09,990 disinformation and psyops regarding its 1261 01:02:18,220 --> 01:02:14,310 own US citizens well to its own US 1262 01:02:23,300 --> 01:02:18,230 citizens well and and the objective of 1263 01:02:26,300 --> 01:02:23,310 psychological operations is to induce a 1264 01:02:29,510 --> 01:02:26,310 population to have the attitudes and 1265 01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:29,520 behaviors that you want them to have and 1266 01:02:34,250 --> 01:02:31,770 if you're fighting a war you want the 1267 01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:34,260 population to be submissive the 1268 01:02:40,190 --> 01:02:36,450 population that you're either conquering 1269 01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:40,200 or that you're in engaging with and this 1270 01:02:45,350 --> 01:02:42,570 is the core of psychological operations 1271 01:02:48,950 --> 01:02:45,360 so there is this effort a percept 1272 01:02:53,210 --> 01:02:48,960 perception management with populations 1273 01:02:54,530 --> 01:02:53,220 so that people don't get up too uppity 1274 01:02:57,730 --> 01:02:54,540 and they don't start looking in the 1275 01:03:00,320 --> 01:02:57,740 places that they shouldn't be now the 1276 01:03:02,500 --> 01:03:00,330 Robertson panel demonstrated in the 1277 01:03:05,540 --> 01:03:02,510 1950s and we don't have the whole 1278 01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:05,550 document we what we have is a sanitized 1279 01:03:11,690 --> 01:03:08,610 version but it became obvious 1280 01:03:15,380 --> 01:03:11,700 that they had a policy of debunking UFOs 1281 01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:15,390 and this public debunking of UFOs went 1282 01:03:21,140 --> 01:03:18,090 on you know up and up to the time of the 1283 01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:21,150 D Condon report so that that's a 1284 01:03:26,540 --> 01:03:24,570 documented direct evidence knock him 1285 01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:26,550 into direct evidence that there was an 1286 01:03:34,310 --> 01:03:29,610 effort to affect the public perception 1287 01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:34,320 about UFOs no more lately you know we've 1288 01:03:39,650 --> 01:03:36,930 had the Cold War we had the conflict 1289 01:03:42,710 --> 01:03:39,660 with the Soviet Union and I think that 1290 01:03:48,020 --> 01:03:42,720 both sides engaged in propaganda and 1291 01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:48,030 just disinformation and now in today's 1292 01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:50,010 world we have the internet and we have 1293 01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:52,290 social media and I think the whole 1294 01:03:57,760 --> 01:03:54,210 thing's blown wide open I know that's 1295 01:04:02,300 --> 01:03:57,770 just so easy put out misinformation yeah 1296 01:04:04,100 --> 01:04:02,310 yeah yeah just to jump in here just to 1297 01:04:05,630 --> 01:04:04,110 jump in here Tom really quick a lot of 1298 01:04:08,270 --> 01:04:05,640 people are of the opinion that the to 1299 01:04:09,830 --> 01:04:08,280 the stars Academy is in fact a psyops 1300 01:04:14,450 --> 01:04:09,840 operation what are your thoughts on all 1301 01:04:18,140 --> 01:04:14,460 that I take a wait-and-see attitude it's 1302 01:04:19,700 --> 01:04:18,150 it's definitely a striking situation you 1303 01:04:22,390 --> 01:04:19,710 know for this group to come out in 1304 01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:22,400 public and a couple of the people 1305 01:04:27,290 --> 01:04:24,810 themselves have been members of the 1306 01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:27,300 aviary and this has made certain people 1307 01:04:33,800 --> 01:04:29,610 in the UFO community very suspicious of 1308 01:04:36,590 --> 01:04:33,810 them but at the same time it may be a 1309 01:04:38,030 --> 01:04:36,600 legitimate effort and possibly from 1310 01:04:40,340 --> 01:04:38,040 behind the scenes that there are 1311 01:04:42,410 --> 01:04:40,350 elements within the military-industrial 1312 01:04:45,070 --> 01:04:42,420 complex that want to get some 1313 01:04:47,990 --> 01:04:45,080 information out into the public so I 1314 01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:48,000 don't take a hard-line position on that 1315 01:04:52,070 --> 01:04:49,530 at all I take a wait-and-see attitude 1316 01:04:55,190 --> 01:04:52,080 and let's see let's see if they're still 1317 01:04:59,320 --> 01:04:55,200 around in five years okay I I still 1318 01:05:01,820 --> 01:04:59,330 believe however there are it is possible 1319 01:05:03,410 --> 01:05:01,830 and we all know social media is a game 1320 01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:03,420 changer yes thank you for making that 1321 01:05:11,060 --> 01:05:07,290 point but I think it's still possible 1322 01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:11,070 and not naive to think that our own US 1323 01:05:16,100 --> 01:05:14,610 government and any other governments 1324 01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:16,110 whether they're first or third world 1325 01:05:22,430 --> 01:05:20,610 governments are using social media to 1326 01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:22,440 foster conspiracy theories 1327 01:05:27,650 --> 01:05:25,410 rumors and spread fake news regarding 1328 01:05:29,630 --> 01:05:27,660 certain topics whatever those topics 1329 01:05:32,540 --> 01:05:29,640 could be I think that's just something 1330 01:05:35,089 --> 01:05:32,550 they do on a regular regarding any kind 1331 01:05:38,079 --> 01:05:35,099 of counterintelligence efforts even if 1332 01:05:41,210 --> 01:05:38,089 it's against their own US citizens now 1333 01:05:42,740 --> 01:05:41,220 one random topic I was gonna bring up 1334 01:05:44,900 --> 01:05:42,750 that we don't need to go into but I just 1335 01:05:46,309 --> 01:05:44,910 want to make a yeah before you get to 1336 01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:46,319 that chance I could jump in here real 1337 01:05:52,670 --> 01:05:49,410 quick yeah any kind of a PSYOP is going 1338 01:05:55,220 --> 01:05:52,680 to have a specific goal so you know you 1339 01:05:57,410 --> 01:05:55,230 always have to keep that in mind the the 1340 01:05:59,540 --> 01:05:57,420 word the expression has become common 1341 01:06:01,819 --> 01:05:59,550 enough now that I think it's become a 1342 01:06:05,390 --> 01:06:01,829 little bit loaded and it's an automatic 1343 01:06:05,930 --> 01:06:05,400 pejorative but you have to know what the 1344 01:06:09,500 --> 01:06:05,940 goal is 1345 01:06:12,349 --> 01:06:09,510 any SIOP is going to have a goal any 1346 01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:12,359 disagreement on that time or no 1347 01:06:17,990 --> 01:06:16,050 absolutely but I'm not on there I'm not 1348 01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:18,000 in those offices where they're planning 1349 01:06:22,550 --> 01:06:20,010 whatever it is that they plan so I don't 1350 01:06:26,660 --> 01:06:22,560 know what their goals are right so one 1351 01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:26,670 really old that I agree with one one 1352 01:06:32,300 --> 01:06:29,010 really old the topic that we won't go 1353 01:06:35,780 --> 01:06:32,310 into but everybody is aware of to a 1354 01:06:37,579 --> 01:06:35,790 degree is the project MKULTRA CIA mind 1355 01:06:41,210 --> 01:06:37,589 control program that they had that they 1356 01:06:46,420 --> 01:06:41,220 actually used on Canadian and US 1357 01:06:49,309 --> 01:06:46,430 citizens through CIA assets and they had 1358 01:06:51,170 --> 01:06:49,319 different code names for those projects 1359 01:06:53,270 --> 01:06:51,180 such as Project Blue Bird or project 1360 01:06:56,690 --> 01:06:53,280 artichoke and many other code names and 1361 01:07:00,710 --> 01:06:56,700 they actually conducted illegal 1362 01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:00,720 experiments on US and Canadian citizens 1363 01:07:08,140 --> 01:07:04,530 so a those were strange experiments but 1364 01:07:12,170 --> 01:07:08,150 also I think there was some kind of 1365 01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:12,180 strange propaganda that may happen 1366 01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:14,970 spread during that period of time the 1367 01:07:22,069 --> 01:07:17,130 point is is if a person were to actually 1368 01:07:25,790 --> 01:07:22,079 Google some kind of keywords like the 1369 01:07:28,190 --> 01:07:25,800 United States intelligence propaganda 1370 01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:28,200 programs they will come up with some 1371 01:07:36,380 --> 01:07:34,410 very good articles of from publications 1372 01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:36,390 that are reliable 1373 01:07:43,190 --> 01:07:38,970 and by trusted sources that have been 1374 01:07:45,410 --> 01:07:43,200 actually able to detail definitively the 1375 01:07:47,599 --> 01:07:45,420 history of that and that's actually 1376 01:07:50,059 --> 01:07:47,609 happened for a long time now yep 1377 01:07:52,640 --> 01:07:50,069 mainstream news organizations being on 1378 01:07:55,250 --> 01:07:52,650 the CIA payroll and so on and so forth 1379 01:07:57,500 --> 01:07:55,260 you know it's a it's a long sordid 1380 01:08:00,200 --> 01:07:57,510 history it is it's a very long history 1381 01:08:03,349 --> 01:08:00,210 which we won't go into but you brought 1382 01:08:05,620 --> 01:08:03,359 it up Tom on your on the the list of 1383 01:08:08,870 --> 01:08:05,630 topics we're gonna go over because I 1384 01:08:12,140 --> 01:08:08,880 think well I just like might want to 1385 01:08:13,970 --> 01:08:12,150 share a little personal information when 1386 01:08:17,030 --> 01:08:13,980 I was growing up you know as a teenager 1387 01:08:18,999 --> 01:08:17,040 I would wonder you know just like any 1388 01:08:22,099 --> 01:08:19,009 other teenager are these things possible 1389 01:08:23,539 --> 01:08:22,109 well I couldn't I couldn't look this 1390 01:08:24,110 --> 01:08:23,549 stuff up because we didn't have the 1391 01:08:26,059 --> 01:08:24,120 Internet 1392 01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:26,069 so then I'd have to go to the library 1393 01:08:30,410 --> 01:08:27,449 and how do you look up something like 1394 01:08:32,450 --> 01:08:30,420 that so you don't really know where to 1395 01:08:34,999 --> 01:08:32,460 begin then you have microfiche I suppose 1396 01:08:37,070 --> 01:08:35,009 you could look through but that's so 1397 01:08:39,320 --> 01:08:37,080 time-consuming like you'd literally have 1398 01:08:42,079 --> 01:08:39,330 to be so myopically focused on that 1399 01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:42,089 narrow topic matter and that it's very 1400 01:08:50,539 --> 01:08:44,850 difficult in the narrow scope of it to 1401 01:08:52,910 --> 01:08:50,549 find it now you can find anything and so 1402 01:08:54,919 --> 01:08:52,920 so I you know a person can really become 1403 01:08:57,439 --> 01:08:54,929 a lot more educated on these really 1404 01:09:00,249 --> 01:08:57,449 interesting topics and hopefully a 1405 01:09:06,200 --> 01:09:00,259 person will also take into consideration 1406 01:09:07,999 --> 01:09:06,210 that we can all become better people by 1407 01:09:10,370 --> 01:09:08,009 learning more about this kind of history 1408 01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:10,380 that's that's a chant that just a quick 1409 01:09:14,209 --> 01:09:12,690 question for you I'm not old enough to 1410 01:09:15,769 --> 01:09:14,219 know what this out what is microfiche 1411 01:09:24,289 --> 01:09:15,779 I'm not old enough to know what that is 1412 01:09:27,110 --> 01:09:24,299 how do you know what that is do you want 1413 01:09:27,919 --> 01:09:27,120 to explain him what microfiche no I'm 1414 01:09:33,979 --> 01:09:27,929 kidding I'm kidding 1415 01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:33,989 I know he's just being a jerk story yes 1416 01:09:37,999 --> 01:09:35,370 sure absolutely 1417 01:09:39,680 --> 01:09:38,009 I just want to let our listeners know by 1418 01:09:43,910 --> 01:09:39,690 the way to the folks that don't even 1419 01:09:45,829 --> 01:09:43,920 know what payphones are or yeah I've 1420 01:09:47,120 --> 01:09:45,839 heard I've seen them in old movies I've 1421 01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:47,130 seen them in old movies I don't know 1422 01:09:51,540 --> 01:09:49,210 what they are Mike 1423 01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:51,550 microfiche is a flat piece of film that 1424 01:09:56,310 --> 01:09:54,250 contains micro photographs of the pages 1425 01:09:59,340 --> 01:09:56,320 of certain kinds of documents like a 1426 01:10:01,200 --> 01:09:59,350 newspaper a catalog or anything and you 1427 01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:01,210 can just flip through it on a screen and 1428 01:10:06,330 --> 01:10:03,010 that's the end of that Tom please go 1429 01:10:08,730 --> 01:10:06,340 forth there was an article in The Wall 1430 01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:08,740 Street Journal as either in the late 80s 1431 01:10:14,520 --> 01:10:10,570 or the early 90s and it was on the 1432 01:10:17,030 --> 01:10:14,530 subject of disinformation and the public 1433 01:10:20,490 --> 01:10:17,040 awareness of the topic of disinformation 1434 01:10:23,220 --> 01:10:20,500 had originated from Soviet activities 1435 01:10:26,250 --> 01:10:23,230 they their their word was dissin from 1436 01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:26,260 nazia and this story in The Wall Street 1437 01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:29,290 Journal and Frank you are talking about 1438 01:10:36,150 --> 01:10:32,170 the disinformation or the SIOP having a 1439 01:10:38,850 --> 01:10:36,160 goal the goal was to get people in the 1440 01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:38,860 Middle East very upset and mad at the US 1441 01:10:43,590 --> 01:10:41,410 and what they did was the Soviets 1442 01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:43,600 apparently planted a story in a Middle 1443 01:10:49,890 --> 01:10:47,770 Eastern newspaper that we know that when 1444 01:10:52,620 --> 01:10:49,900 the astronauts visited the moon that's 1445 01:10:55,080 --> 01:10:52,630 obviously an awesome experience and one 1446 01:10:57,360 --> 01:10:55,090 or more of them have had spiritual 1447 01:11:00,090 --> 01:10:57,370 experiences because of it and that's 1448 01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:00,100 only understandable well this story was 1449 01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:02,530 that an astronaut he walked on the 1450 01:11:08,010 --> 01:11:04,330 American astronaut that walked on the 1451 01:11:10,020 --> 01:11:08,020 moon heard the call of Allah and he 1452 01:11:13,020 --> 01:11:10,030 converted to Islam and when he got back 1453 01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:13,030 to the US his career suffered for it and 1454 01:11:17,280 --> 01:11:15,610 this infuriated people in the Middle 1455 01:11:20,310 --> 01:11:17,290 East and I thought that was an excellent 1456 01:11:23,070 --> 01:11:20,320 example of disinformation because it's 1457 01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:23,080 partly true and partly false yes 1458 01:11:27,990 --> 01:11:25,930 astronauts walked on the moon yes some 1459 01:11:30,480 --> 01:11:28,000 astronauts had transformative 1460 01:11:38,610 --> 01:11:30,490 experiences because of it but no they 1461 01:11:41,460 --> 01:11:38,620 didn't convert yeah yeah let me jump in 1462 01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:41,470 here and your blog Tom it's a great blog 1463 01:11:45,990 --> 01:11:43,930 go check it out I'm gonna have the 1464 01:11:47,970 --> 01:11:46,000 direct link in the description section 1465 01:11:49,470 --> 01:11:47,980 of the video but that you might want to 1466 01:11:51,750 --> 01:11:49,480 jump over as we're talking about 1467 01:11:54,360 --> 01:11:51,760 different subjects Tom's got articles 1468 01:11:56,490 --> 01:11:54,370 over there and it's Tom Whitmore blog 1469 01:11:59,130 --> 01:11:56,500 WordPress calm but the links are down 1470 01:12:01,410 --> 01:11:59,140 below but there's a couple of things 1471 01:12:02,459 --> 01:12:01,420 that you've got like a very lengthy sort 1472 01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:02,469 of to do 1473 01:12:09,840 --> 01:12:06,330 getting done and already done list and 1474 01:12:12,959 --> 01:12:09,850 one thing is you have reviewed Nathan 1475 01:12:16,410 --> 01:12:12,969 Twinings personal correspondence logs 1476 01:12:22,590 --> 01:12:16,420 for a 1952 did you turn anything up 1477 01:12:25,500 --> 01:12:22,600 related to the DC 52 UFO case no I 1478 01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:25,510 didn't notice anything like that Frank 1479 01:12:31,410 --> 01:12:28,930 but you saw the document that I had on 1480 01:12:33,930 --> 01:12:31,420 my blog where I think it was general 1481 01:12:37,439 --> 01:12:33,940 Sanford you had you know that they 1482 01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:37,449 mentioned saucers yes yes yes on the on 1483 01:12:44,220 --> 01:12:41,410 the chronology what was in there though 1484 01:12:48,300 --> 01:12:44,230 was a lot of conversations with general 1485 01:12:50,610 --> 01:12:48,310 LeMay and general LeMay kept in very 1486 01:12:54,300 --> 01:12:50,620 close touch with General twining and 1487 01:12:56,010 --> 01:12:54,310 they actually it wasn't exactly a 1488 01:12:58,620 --> 01:12:56,020 transcript but they were there were 1489 01:13:03,840 --> 01:12:58,630 pretty pretty extensive notes on their 1490 01:13:05,910 --> 01:13:03,850 conversations and it's a little bit hard 1491 01:13:07,410 --> 01:13:05,920 to follow you know because they those 1492 01:13:09,120 --> 01:13:07,420 two men knew what they were talking 1493 01:13:12,870 --> 01:13:09,130 about running why are they were talking 1494 01:13:14,310 --> 01:13:12,880 about it yeah very interesting 1495 01:13:16,170 --> 01:13:14,320 yeah tell the folks a little bit about 1496 01:13:21,030 --> 01:13:16,180 Curtis LeMay he's a pretty interesting 1497 01:13:24,479 --> 01:13:21,040 guy well what I know about him he was a 1498 01:13:27,570 --> 01:13:24,489 bomber in World War two and I know that 1499 01:13:30,450 --> 01:13:27,580 he was involved in bomb a Japan they 1500 01:13:33,959 --> 01:13:30,460 started out bombing at a high level and 1501 01:13:35,880 --> 01:13:33,969 yeah at a high altitude and I think 1502 01:13:38,220 --> 01:13:35,890 because of the winds and other problems 1503 01:13:40,890 --> 01:13:38,230 they they weren't getting the accuracy 1504 01:13:44,670 --> 01:13:40,900 that they needed so they switched to a 1505 01:13:49,040 --> 01:13:44,680 much lower lower level of bombing in 1506 01:13:52,320 --> 01:13:49,050 altitude and I believe at the time that 1507 01:13:55,320 --> 01:13:52,330 general twining was vice chief of staff 1508 01:13:57,689 --> 01:13:55,330 of the Air Force at Washington the that 1509 01:14:02,850 --> 01:13:57,699 general LeMay was at wright-patterson at 1510 01:14:04,590 --> 01:14:02,860 that time and as you know general LeMay 1511 01:14:06,870 --> 01:14:04,600 was very instrumental in developing the 1512 01:14:13,680 --> 01:14:06,880 street the Strategic Air Command so 1513 01:14:15,959 --> 01:14:13,690 there so he eventually became the chief 1514 01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:15,969 of staff of the Air Force himself 1515 01:14:21,510 --> 01:14:20,050 so he was very key figure in in the 1516 01:14:23,910 --> 01:14:21,520 development of the modern air force 1517 01:14:26,070 --> 01:14:23,920 after World War Two and I can tell you 1518 01:14:27,450 --> 01:14:26,080 from looking at 20s daily logs that he 1519 01:14:30,120 --> 01:14:27,460 was in very close touch with general 1520 01:14:32,700 --> 01:14:30,130 Twinings understood yeah just a little 1521 01:14:36,390 --> 01:14:32,710 aside that later on in life he became 1522 01:14:38,280 --> 01:14:36,400 the vice presidential nominee when 1523 01:14:43,950 --> 01:14:38,290 George Wallace ran an independent 1524 01:14:46,410 --> 01:14:43,960 campaign for president in 1968 these 1525 01:14:56,330 --> 01:14:46,420 guys were real right-wingers Joe yeah 1526 01:14:59,189 --> 01:14:56,340 yeah Kennedy trying to hold him back 1527 01:15:02,070 --> 01:14:59,199 these guys were ferocious yeah and 1528 01:15:04,290 --> 01:15:02,080 another DC guy whose name I see 1529 01:15:06,840 --> 01:15:04,300 mentioned over at your blog is a guy 1530 01:15:08,610 --> 01:15:06,850 named dick D'Amato and his name has come 1531 01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:08,620 up a little bit but for folks who didn't 1532 01:15:11,790 --> 01:15:10,090 catch those shows where his name did 1533 01:15:15,540 --> 01:15:11,800 come up I wanted to tell the folks a 1534 01:15:18,570 --> 01:15:15,550 little bit about him mr. D'Amato is a 1535 01:15:21,420 --> 01:15:18,580 very highly qualified highly educated 1536 01:15:27,630 --> 01:15:21,430 person that has been in very responsible 1537 01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:27,640 positions he's been a staff position in 1538 01:15:35,910 --> 01:15:31,570 Congress and the reason why I brought 1539 01:15:40,110 --> 01:15:35,920 his name is because there's a story that 1540 01:15:42,900 --> 01:15:40,120 he allegedly took Jesse Marcel jr. into 1541 01:15:45,030 --> 01:15:42,910 a secure room at the Capitol and 1542 01:15:47,790 --> 01:15:45,040 basically told him that Roswell was real 1543 01:15:50,640 --> 01:15:47,800 and the reason why I brought up de Matos 1544 01:15:53,459 --> 01:15:50,650 name in my own blog is because I wrote 1545 01:15:57,530 --> 01:15:53,469 mr. D'Amato a letter requesting contact 1546 01:16:00,660 --> 01:15:57,540 to see if he would confirm that story 1547 01:16:03,180 --> 01:16:00,670 but if you go on mr. de Matos website he 1548 01:16:04,530 --> 01:16:03,190 basically tell you that he doesn't he 1549 01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:04,540 doesn't have anything more to say about 1550 01:16:11,010 --> 01:16:09,010 UFOs he did for a while I mean there is 1551 01:16:13,950 --> 01:16:11,020 a legitimate interest he's one of those 1552 01:16:15,450 --> 01:16:13,960 insider Washington guys like a few of 1553 01:16:18,240 --> 01:16:15,460 them were seeing the name sprinkle out 1554 01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:18,250 here and there but he was and he was an 1555 01:16:23,400 --> 01:16:20,530 insider he's retired now and I think 1556 01:16:25,140 --> 01:16:23,410 living in Maryland but he's a guy who's 1557 01:16:26,910 --> 01:16:25,150 been interested all along and has always 1558 01:16:29,009 --> 01:16:26,920 tried to you know ferret out some 1559 01:16:33,359 --> 01:16:29,019 information here and there 1560 01:16:35,009 --> 01:16:33,369 and there's another incident we I'm sure 1561 01:16:39,450 --> 01:16:35,019 you're familiar with Robert Dean's 1562 01:16:46,020 --> 01:16:39,460 claims that he saw this assessment at 1563 01:16:48,029 --> 01:16:46,030 NATO headquarters and mr. Dean according 1564 01:16:51,029 --> 01:16:48,039 to his story that he told in an 1565 01:16:53,310 --> 01:16:51,039 interview with Michael Sawa he said that 1566 01:16:55,799 --> 01:16:53,320 he was over in Europe he was at a UFO 1567 01:16:58,680 --> 01:16:55,809 conference and he took a side trip back 1568 01:17:00,959 --> 01:16:58,690 to NATO to talk to people there because 1569 01:17:03,660 --> 01:17:00,969 he was getting a lot of flack for his 1570 01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:03,670 claim of having seen this UFO assessment 1571 01:17:09,419 --> 01:17:06,010 paper when he got back to the United 1572 01:17:12,600 --> 01:17:09,429 States Robert Dean claims that he 1573 01:17:14,910 --> 01:17:12,610 received photographs of documents in the 1574 01:17:17,879 --> 01:17:14,920 mail anonymously and these photographs 1575 01:17:18,660 --> 01:17:17,889 were allegedly from part of this 1576 01:17:23,129 --> 01:17:18,670 assessment 1577 01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:23,139 well mr. Dean said that he gave these 1578 01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:26,010 photographs these copies of photographs 1579 01:17:32,489 --> 01:17:30,010 to richard D'Amato to find out if they 1580 01:17:34,919 --> 01:17:32,499 were genuine or Roth in it well then 1581 01:17:37,350 --> 01:17:34,929 Dean said that he found out later that 1582 01:17:40,620 --> 01:17:37,360 Timothy they turned up with Timothy good 1583 01:17:44,669 --> 01:17:40,630 and had been published in some 1584 01:17:46,410 --> 01:17:44,679 publication or another and in in Britain 1585 01:17:47,910 --> 01:17:46,420 and I haven't been able to locate the 1586 01:17:50,520 --> 01:17:47,920 actual I know the name but I haven't 1587 01:17:52,709 --> 01:17:50,530 been able to locate the publication the 1588 01:17:54,540 --> 01:17:52,719 implication being that mr. D'Amato sent 1589 01:17:58,169 --> 01:17:54,550 the photographs over to to do with me 1590 01:18:01,979 --> 01:17:58,179 good so that's another incident I wonder 1591 01:18:05,069 --> 01:18:01,989 if you I'm sure you have because you 1592 01:18:06,750 --> 01:18:05,079 know this person quite well you know to 1593 01:18:08,569 --> 01:18:06,760 a degree just like the rest of us were 1594 01:18:11,310 --> 01:18:08,579 familiar with who this is but Issac oi 1595 01:18:13,310 --> 01:18:11,320 the archivist and researcher 1596 01:18:17,370 --> 01:18:13,320 regarding being able to compile as much 1597 01:18:19,709 --> 01:18:17,380 UFO data as possible for the UFO 1598 01:18:21,899 --> 01:18:19,719 community perhaps maybe he might be able 1599 01:18:24,450 --> 01:18:21,909 to lend a little bit of support to find 1600 01:18:27,330 --> 01:18:24,460 that kind of publication since he's such 1601 01:18:31,109 --> 01:18:27,340 an expert on the archives of various 1602 01:18:32,939 --> 01:18:31,119 publications yes that's a that's a good 1603 01:18:35,279 --> 01:18:32,949 suggestion chant and I have another 1604 01:18:37,680 --> 01:18:35,289 contact over there I'm gonna try but 1605 01:18:40,589 --> 01:18:37,690 thank you for the suggestion yeah I 1606 01:18:42,220 --> 01:18:40,599 wanted to also ask you about something 1607 01:18:45,970 --> 01:18:42,230 very interesting 1608 01:18:50,380 --> 01:18:45,980 and that is Bigelow before we go forward 1609 01:18:52,600 --> 01:18:50,390 with Bigelow though I wanted to it just 1610 01:18:55,150 --> 01:18:52,610 wanted to quote you in an because I 1611 01:18:58,930 --> 01:18:55,160 actually had the privilege of 1612 01:19:02,440 --> 01:18:58,940 interviewing you was a while back I 1613 01:19:05,770 --> 01:19:02,450 think it was last year actually it might 1614 01:19:08,290 --> 01:19:05,780 have been 2018 I'm not sure I'll have to 1615 01:19:11,860 --> 01:19:08,300 double-check on me on the date of this 1616 01:19:13,840 --> 01:19:11,870 interview but I had asked you and I'm 1617 01:19:15,130 --> 01:19:13,850 just this is a random thing but I just 1618 01:19:16,870 --> 01:19:15,140 want to mention what you said because I 1619 01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:16,880 think it's kind of an interesting I 1620 01:19:20,920 --> 01:19:18,650 asked you what do you think are the 1621 01:19:27,040 --> 01:19:20,930 worldwide psychological religious 1622 01:19:29,410 --> 01:19:27,050 economic aspects of disclosure and and 1623 01:19:31,870 --> 01:19:29,420 you got the gist of what I was asking 1624 01:19:34,810 --> 01:19:31,880 and you said it's definitely related to 1625 01:19:38,590 --> 01:19:34,820 what the true history is Jesus 1626 01:19:41,680 --> 01:19:38,600 introduced by ETS humans genetically 1627 01:19:43,660 --> 01:19:41,690 created by ETS ETS here for millions of 1628 01:19:45,520 --> 01:19:43,670 years how many species have been 1629 01:19:49,630 --> 01:19:45,530 involved is their connection with 1630 01:19:51,880 --> 01:19:49,640 demonology angelology why are people 1631 01:19:54,910 --> 01:19:51,890 undergoing abduction and contact 1632 01:19:56,860 --> 01:19:54,920 experiences how much technology does US 1633 01:19:59,020 --> 01:19:56,870 government have talk about a can of 1634 01:20:01,810 --> 01:19:59,030 worms these are just ideas you were 1635 01:20:03,460 --> 01:20:01,820 throwing out there how do you feel about 1636 01:20:08,110 --> 01:20:03,470 what you said and would you change your 1637 01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:08,120 answer at all Tom on that question well 1638 01:20:13,720 --> 01:20:11,810 like I've said before champ if it's true 1639 01:20:17,890 --> 01:20:13,730 that there has been this inside 1640 01:20:19,900 --> 01:20:17,900 knowledge at least since 1947 how do you 1641 01:20:21,670 --> 01:20:19,910 go out to the public and tell them that 1642 01:20:26,140 --> 01:20:21,680 you've been lying to them for the last 1643 01:20:28,000 --> 01:20:26,150 70 years secondly if there were 1644 01:20:30,910 --> 01:20:28,010 disclosure and I don't think there will 1645 01:20:32,830 --> 01:20:30,920 be it depends on what the disclosure is 1646 01:20:36,190 --> 01:20:32,840 and we get into the business of 1647 01:20:38,740 --> 01:20:36,200 wondering if we shouldn't be careful 1648 01:20:41,200 --> 01:20:38,750 about what we ask for because what if 1649 01:20:43,570 --> 01:20:41,210 there's bad news in there for example 1650 01:20:46,120 --> 01:20:43,580 it's known the FBI keeps track of the 1651 01:20:49,210 --> 01:20:46,130 number of missing people in the US and 1652 01:20:52,240 --> 01:20:49,220 this has been discussed by the gentleman 1653 01:20:54,010 --> 01:20:52,250 with missing forum one but there are 1654 01:20:56,350 --> 01:20:54,020 some people that go missing that aren't 1655 01:20:58,890 --> 01:20:56,360 accounted for and we hear the 1656 01:21:01,240 --> 01:20:58,900 reports of abductions and rumors of 1657 01:21:03,070 --> 01:21:01,250 abductions and cattle mutilations and 1658 01:21:05,020 --> 01:21:03,080 even human mutilations so what if 1659 01:21:07,149 --> 01:21:05,030 they're you know what if there's bad 1660 01:21:10,229 --> 01:21:07,159 news in there I think that that comes 1661 01:21:14,010 --> 01:21:10,239 into play well and just very quickly I 1662 01:21:18,300 --> 01:21:14,020 wanted to ask you so do you feel that 1663 01:21:21,209 --> 01:21:18,310 the glowing arms and black money a 1664 01:21:24,580 --> 01:21:21,219 article that came out December 16th of 1665 01:21:27,669 --> 01:21:24,590 2017 do you feel that that was partial 1666 01:21:30,340 --> 01:21:27,679 disclosure and not quite enough what is 1667 01:21:32,770 --> 01:21:30,350 your thought process on the level of 1668 01:21:36,459 --> 01:21:32,780 disclosure that interesting article 1669 01:21:39,060 --> 01:21:36,469 brought about that was sort of a kind of 1670 01:21:44,320 --> 01:21:39,070 dropped like a bomb in the UFO community 1671 01:21:47,500 --> 01:21:44,330 yeah well and it really it really piqued 1672 01:21:49,840 --> 01:21:47,510 my interest in certain respects which I 1673 01:21:51,669 --> 01:21:49,850 won't get into here but okay I don't 1674 01:21:54,399 --> 01:21:51,679 believe that we've had any level of 1675 01:21:58,479 --> 01:21:54,409 disclosure I think that what we need 1676 01:22:01,780 --> 01:21:58,489 first is substantive confirmation for 1677 01:22:04,330 --> 01:22:01,790 example the government military 1678 01:22:04,780 --> 01:22:04,340 industrial complex produced the b-2 1679 01:22:07,270 --> 01:22:04,790 bomber 1680 01:22:10,540 --> 01:22:07,280 well they had a ceremony they rolled out 1681 01:22:16,530 --> 01:22:10,550 the bomber and they had a ceremony 1682 01:22:23,709 --> 01:22:20,890 you know confirmation that it exists and 1683 01:22:26,260 --> 01:22:23,719 on the disclosure side of it you can get 1684 01:22:28,030 --> 01:22:26,270 books that show the inside of the b2 and 1685 01:22:31,300 --> 01:22:28,040 the cockpit and get all kinds of 1686 01:22:35,320 --> 01:22:31,310 information that's disclosure okay now 1687 01:22:37,750 --> 01:22:35,330 in this case we we have received what I 1688 01:22:40,450 --> 01:22:37,760 consider to be soft confirmation for 1689 01:22:43,840 --> 01:22:40,460 example we've had these videos of these 1690 01:22:46,540 --> 01:22:43,850 objects that the Navy has encountered 1691 01:22:49,390 --> 01:22:46,550 and that Louisa Elizondo has discussed 1692 01:22:51,820 --> 01:22:49,400 extensively and they know that 1693 01:22:55,600 --> 01:22:51,830 something's going on there so it's been 1694 01:22:57,129 --> 01:22:55,610 brought into the public arena and into 1695 01:23:01,169 --> 01:22:57,139 the public consciousness and that's 1696 01:23:04,930 --> 01:23:01,179 that's a form but the soft confirmation 1697 01:23:07,419 --> 01:23:04,940 that maybe UFOs were a legitimate 1698 01:23:09,189 --> 01:23:07,429 subject to talk about now okay and maybe 1699 01:23:10,209 --> 01:23:09,199 we've gotten that far but ask for any 1700 01:23:12,430 --> 01:23:10,219 real sets of 1701 01:23:14,740 --> 01:23:12,440 disclosure I don't think we're there and 1702 01:23:17,680 --> 01:23:14,750 I've heard it said that there are 1703 01:23:20,830 --> 01:23:17,690 elements within the government into 1704 01:23:22,479 --> 01:23:20,840 military industrial matrix that want to 1705 01:23:26,680 --> 01:23:22,489 disclose but they don't know how to do 1706 01:23:28,780 --> 01:23:26,690 it okay I see and didn't they guys okay 1707 01:23:30,370 --> 01:23:28,790 so this so Tom I'm sorry that sorry to 1708 01:23:33,220 --> 01:23:30,380 interrupt chanta you know I'm out of 1709 01:23:34,720 --> 01:23:33,230 practice so well you know but haven't 1710 01:23:38,439 --> 01:23:34,730 had to interrupt you too much lately 1711 01:23:40,390 --> 01:23:38,449 but this is more like not to use the spy 1712 01:23:44,700 --> 01:23:40,400 jargon no more like a limited hangout 1713 01:23:47,380 --> 01:23:44,710 would you say yeah very much so 1714 01:23:50,320 --> 01:23:47,390 what what a limited I didn't hear who 1715 01:23:53,650 --> 01:23:50,330 limited hangout oh okay good 1716 01:23:56,200 --> 01:23:53,660 yeah and we're getting this stop start 1717 01:24:01,360 --> 01:23:56,210 and I got this impression way back in 1718 01:24:05,110 --> 01:24:01,370 the 90s that in terms of this rollout of 1719 01:24:07,000 --> 01:24:05,120 information that the guy they seem to 1720 01:24:10,930 --> 01:24:07,010 have the foot on the accelerator in the 1721 01:24:14,260 --> 01:24:10,940 break at the same time and even with 1722 01:24:16,450 --> 01:24:14,270 these items coming out from DoD just 1723 01:24:19,360 --> 01:24:16,460 within the last few weeks about the 1724 01:24:21,370 --> 01:24:19,370 status of mister Elizondo and the status 1725 01:24:23,439 --> 01:24:21,380 of the 88 program and so on and so forth 1726 01:24:26,709 --> 01:24:23,449 we're getting all kinds of conflicting 1727 01:24:31,000 --> 01:24:26,719 information it's really it's I call it 1728 01:24:33,610 --> 01:24:31,010 mass confusion yeah definitely there was 1729 01:24:36,520 --> 01:24:33,620 some conflict between in terms of the 1730 01:24:38,470 --> 01:24:36,530 frequency question how often are these 1731 01:24:41,410 --> 01:24:38,480 really compelling cases where you might 1732 01:24:46,150 --> 01:24:41,420 have a visual and radar confirming a 1733 01:24:48,340 --> 01:24:46,160 visual sighting so it at one point he 1734 01:24:50,110 --> 01:24:48,350 was speaking at the scu conference and 1735 01:24:52,570 --> 01:24:50,120 said they didn't have that number and 1736 01:24:55,120 --> 01:24:52,580 then on the TV show he says they've got 1737 01:24:56,229 --> 01:24:55,130 it but it's a sensitive number so he 1738 01:24:58,090 --> 01:24:56,239 couldn't go any further 1739 01:24:59,560 --> 01:24:58,100 but that just for the folks that not 1740 01:25:02,500 --> 01:24:59,570 familiar with that what a limited 1741 01:25:04,300 --> 01:25:02,510 hangout is it's been described as spy 1742 01:25:07,180 --> 01:25:04,310 jargon for a favorite and frequently 1743 01:25:09,910 --> 01:25:07,190 used gimmick when the veil of secrecy is 1744 01:25:11,650 --> 01:25:09,920 shredded and you can no longer rely on a 1745 01:25:13,450 --> 01:25:11,660 phony cover story to miss inform the 1746 01:25:15,970 --> 01:25:13,460 public they resort to admitting 1747 01:25:17,920 --> 01:25:15,980 sometimes even volunteering some of the 1748 01:25:20,350 --> 01:25:17,930 truth while still managing to withhold 1749 01:25:22,859 --> 01:25:20,360 the key and damaging facts in the case 1750 01:25:28,859 --> 01:25:22,869 so there you go yeah 1751 01:25:30,510 --> 01:25:28,869 yeah absolutely I just wanted to mention 1752 01:25:33,359 --> 01:25:30,520 an article that just came out recently 1753 01:25:36,149 --> 01:25:33,369 and CBS News and a bunch of other 1754 01:25:38,939 --> 01:25:36,159 mainstream media outlets covered it and 1755 01:25:41,580 --> 01:25:38,949 that is that I'll just read the title of 1756 01:25:43,320 --> 01:25:41,590 one of the articles and that is top 1757 01:25:45,359 --> 01:25:43,330 secret UFO FILES could cause grave 1758 01:25:48,450 --> 01:25:45,369 damage to US national security if 1759 01:25:51,839 --> 01:25:48,460 released Navy says Tom what is your take 1760 01:25:55,200 --> 01:25:51,849 on that perspective by the US government 1761 01:25:58,080 --> 01:25:55,210 I don't think the military wants to 1762 01:26:01,050 --> 01:25:58,090 release anything and I think that 1763 01:26:04,080 --> 01:26:01,060 somehow Elizondo own company found a way 1764 01:26:04,709 --> 01:26:04,090 to get these these videos out into the 1765 01:26:07,680 --> 01:26:04,719 public 1766 01:26:09,689 --> 01:26:07,690 and I've even heard the rumor that there 1767 01:26:12,149 --> 01:26:09,699 was a navy admiral that got tired of 1768 01:26:16,370 --> 01:26:12,159 people being ridiculed in the Navy for 1769 01:26:19,260 --> 01:26:16,380 seeing for having UFO sightings so I 1770 01:26:23,339 --> 01:26:19,270 don't think that the government or the 1771 01:26:27,570 --> 01:26:23,349 military would release anything on their 1772 01:26:30,180 --> 01:26:27,580 own voluntarily that's that's of a 1773 01:26:33,300 --> 01:26:30,190 sensitive nature or that's potentially 1774 01:26:36,000 --> 01:26:33,310 of an explosive or sensitive nature and 1775 01:26:37,830 --> 01:26:36,010 I think like I said I think the Elizondo 1776 01:26:40,890 --> 01:26:37,840 own company found a way to get that 1777 01:26:43,109 --> 01:26:40,900 information out and just to jump in real 1778 01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:43,119 quick with a question Tom during the 1779 01:26:47,700 --> 01:26:45,610 unidentified show that ran last year the 1780 01:26:50,100 --> 01:26:47,710 first set of shows anyway I guess 1781 01:26:53,100 --> 01:26:50,110 there's more to come but Elizondo was 1782 01:26:55,649 --> 01:26:53,110 really specific and he said I am NOT 1783 01:26:57,149 --> 01:26:55,659 Rick Doty now do you have any thoughts 1784 01:26:59,250 --> 01:26:57,159 on that since say you've looked at 1785 01:27:00,209 --> 01:26:59,260 Dodi's background a little bit what do 1786 01:27:04,260 --> 01:27:00,219 you what were your thoughts on that 1787 01:27:05,879 --> 01:27:04,270 comment well I thought I don't know why 1788 01:27:09,180 --> 01:27:05,889 he said that but I'll say this about 1789 01:27:12,689 --> 01:27:09,190 Rick Doty unless you can demonstrate 1790 01:27:16,169 --> 01:27:12,699 that Richard Doty was not an Air Force 1791 01:27:19,770 --> 01:27:16,179 Office of Special Investigations special 1792 01:27:22,350 --> 01:27:19,780 agent I think that basically he should 1793 01:27:25,770 --> 01:27:22,360 be believed now I think we should also 1794 01:27:28,550 --> 01:27:25,780 be careful and he's made very many very 1795 01:27:31,200 --> 01:27:28,560 interesting claims yeah I mean he's 1796 01:27:33,720 --> 01:27:31,210 sorry to interrupt but he's saying that 1797 01:27:36,240 --> 01:27:33,730 the the government knows that these 1798 01:27:36,569 --> 01:27:36,250 aliens are from Zeta Reticuli 'zed made 1799 01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:36,579 that 1800 01:27:40,560 --> 01:27:39,010 I meant openly said it on a TV show our 1801 01:27:42,899 --> 01:27:40,570 good friend Earl Gray appeared online 1802 01:27:46,500 --> 01:27:42,909 later in that show so he said he's made 1803 01:27:48,629 --> 01:27:46,510 a lot of extraordinary claims yes and he 1804 01:27:50,250 --> 01:27:48,639 said that he has other claims are even 1805 01:27:52,020 --> 01:27:50,260 more extraordinary and the only reason 1806 01:27:53,760 --> 01:27:52,030 why he doesn't come out with them as 1807 01:27:55,560 --> 01:27:53,770 that people would accuse him of making 1808 01:27:57,120 --> 01:27:55,570 it up but I'll tell you this he's 1809 01:28:02,640 --> 01:27:57,130 getting ready to come out with a book 1810 01:28:05,609 --> 01:28:02,650 and he to tell you how sensitive his 1811 01:28:07,500 --> 01:28:05,619 work has been he said in several 1812 01:28:09,780 --> 01:28:07,510 interviews that he's he wrote a four 1813 01:28:11,819 --> 01:28:09,790 hundred and thirty page book and the air 1814 01:28:16,560 --> 01:28:11,829 force censored three hundred pages of it 1815 01:28:18,359 --> 01:28:16,570 so he's had to he's had to re why a good 1816 01:28:22,049 --> 01:28:18,369 portion of the book and that's that's 1817 01:28:24,629 --> 01:28:22,059 caused some delay in its publication it 1818 01:28:26,399 --> 01:28:24,639 did want to mention to everybody that 1819 01:28:32,069 --> 01:28:26,409 Paul Dean did write a very interesting 1820 01:28:35,970 --> 01:28:32,079 article on Rick Doty on June 13th of 1821 01:28:38,399 --> 01:28:35,980 2018 it's on his blog UFOs documenting 1822 01:28:41,669 --> 01:28:38,409 the evidence blogspot.com just type in 1823 01:28:45,720 --> 01:28:41,679 Paul Dean and UFOs and his blog spot 1824 01:28:48,479 --> 01:28:45,730 will come up and it's talk the title of 1825 01:28:51,359 --> 01:28:48,489 is of the article he wrote is finally 1826 01:28:54,660 --> 01:28:51,369 Richard C Doty's United States Air Force 1827 01:28:57,120 --> 01:28:54,670 service records well nearly and it's 1828 01:29:00,140 --> 01:28:57,130 important for folks to know Paul Dean 1829 01:29:05,479 --> 01:29:00,150 who is a historian and researcher has 1830 01:29:13,379 --> 01:29:10,109 information on Richard Doty through FOIA 1831 01:29:15,240 --> 01:29:13,389 information requests to the office of 1832 01:29:18,959 --> 01:29:15,250 the Secretary of the Air Force for 1833 01:29:21,990 --> 01:29:18,969 copies of Richard dhotis USAF service 1834 01:29:24,899 --> 01:29:22,000 records and they are on his website 1835 01:29:27,870 --> 01:29:24,909 right there and so you would go to UFOs 1836 01:29:29,939 --> 01:29:27,880 documenting the evidence blogspot type 1837 01:29:31,859 --> 01:29:29,949 in those keywords and Paul Dean and you 1838 01:29:34,459 --> 01:29:31,869 will see all of these interesting 1839 01:29:37,620 --> 01:29:34,469 documents on Richard Dodie's USAF 1840 01:29:39,270 --> 01:29:37,630 records whether it's complete or not I 1841 01:29:41,370 --> 01:29:39,280 don't think it is because that's what he 1842 01:29:44,910 --> 01:29:41,380 alludes to in his title saying well 1843 01:29:47,129 --> 01:29:44,920 nearly anyway actually wanted to ask you 1844 01:29:49,720 --> 01:29:47,139 something I forgot to ask you I'm very 1845 01:29:53,439 --> 01:29:49,730 sorry tom and that is 1846 01:29:55,360 --> 01:29:53,449 the Richard Doty interviews the Richard 1847 01:29:57,520 --> 01:29:55,370 Doty interviews that you listen to very 1848 01:30:00,910 --> 01:29:57,530 carefully probably repeatedly 1849 01:30:03,880 --> 01:30:00,920 was there anything what was your 1850 01:30:05,979 --> 01:30:03,890 takeaway from that well what did you 1851 01:30:09,250 --> 01:30:05,989 glean from that and decide upon 1852 01:30:15,870 --> 01:30:09,260 regarding your research on those 1853 01:30:19,689 --> 01:30:15,880 interviews well like I said I'm 1854 01:30:22,260 --> 01:30:19,699 believing that Richard Doty was an Air 1855 01:30:26,490 --> 01:30:22,270 Force Office of Special Investigations 1856 01:30:30,160 --> 01:30:26,500 special agent and he has said repeatedly 1857 01:30:32,200 --> 01:30:30,170 that when he started that work he was 1858 01:30:35,530 --> 01:30:32,210 brought into a briefing at Kirtland Air 1859 01:30:38,620 --> 01:30:35,540 Force Base and her Force colonel came 1860 01:30:42,220 --> 01:30:38,630 down from Washington and briefed him and 1861 01:30:44,350 --> 01:30:42,230 several other people in af OSI who they 1862 01:30:46,360 --> 01:30:44,360 felt needed to be read into this 1863 01:30:50,439 --> 01:30:46,370 information because of the kind of work 1864 01:30:52,959 --> 01:30:50,449 that they were doing and Dodi has stated 1865 01:30:55,030 --> 01:30:52,969 and this is a point of Education I think 1866 01:30:57,669 --> 01:30:55,040 for all of us because I think sometimes 1867 01:31:00,669 --> 01:30:57,679 the public in the UFO community gets 1868 01:31:02,340 --> 01:31:00,679 things a little bit mixed up but the Air 1869 01:31:05,430 --> 01:31:02,350 Force Office of Special Investigations 1870 01:31:08,290 --> 01:31:05,440 according to Doty part of their 1871 01:31:12,100 --> 01:31:08,300 responsibility is to investigate UFO 1872 01:31:14,880 --> 01:31:12,110 sightings on on military bases and that 1873 01:31:19,330 --> 01:31:14,890 affect military personnel military 1874 01:31:21,100 --> 01:31:19,340 assets and military locations so if 1875 01:31:24,510 --> 01:31:21,110 something weird happens something 1876 01:31:29,560 --> 01:31:24,520 strange happens AAF OSI gets involved 1877 01:31:31,990 --> 01:31:29,570 now in doing insane doubt Richard Doty 1878 01:31:35,080 --> 01:31:32,000 is claimed that they showed a film that 1879 01:31:37,510 --> 01:31:35,090 was from woz well the Roswell recovery 1880 01:31:40,540 --> 01:31:37,520 and that even treatmen was there now I 1881 01:31:43,540 --> 01:31:40,550 don't I don't know if treeman was 1882 01:31:46,240 --> 01:31:43,550 allegedly at Roswell so to speak on 1883 01:31:47,169 --> 01:31:46,250 putting that quotes or that was another 1884 01:31:49,360 --> 01:31:47,179 location 1885 01:31:51,850 --> 01:31:49,370 you know they dumped him there but that 1886 01:31:53,620 --> 01:31:51,860 this is a pretty extraordinary claim in 1887 01:31:56,229 --> 01:31:53,630 and of itself he said that he had been 1888 01:31:59,350 --> 01:31:56,239 shown they had shown him different 1889 01:32:01,870 --> 01:31:59,360 shapes of UFOs they showed several 1890 01:32:03,550 --> 01:32:01,880 different types of alien entities and 1891 01:32:06,490 --> 01:32:03,560 basically explained that 1892 01:32:09,400 --> 01:32:06,500 government had been involved you know 1893 01:32:11,950 --> 01:32:09,410 secretly in this UFO program since the 1894 01:32:13,860 --> 01:32:11,960 time of Roswell now that's that's a 1895 01:32:18,640 --> 01:32:13,870 pretty extraordinary claim but he's 1896 01:32:22,170 --> 01:32:18,650 consistently been telling that story and 1897 01:32:24,400 --> 01:32:22,180 it's basically either true or it isn't 1898 01:32:27,160 --> 01:32:24,410 and I don't know how I don't know how we 1899 01:32:28,240 --> 01:32:27,170 get to the bottom of that I'm going to 1900 01:32:30,970 --> 01:32:28,250 show us the briefing 1901 01:32:32,980 --> 01:32:30,980 now there's also been some folks are of 1902 01:32:35,950 --> 01:32:32,990 the opinion that Doty was involved in 1903 01:32:38,380 --> 01:32:35,960 putting together and the serpo documents 1904 01:32:40,270 --> 01:32:38,390 and they you mentioned that so I'd like 1905 01:32:46,270 --> 01:32:40,280 to know what your opinion on that 1906 01:32:49,180 --> 01:32:46,280 particular material is according to what 1907 01:32:53,140 --> 01:32:49,190 I believe that Doty has said is that the 1908 01:32:57,190 --> 01:32:53,150 serpo story originated out of the 1909 01:32:59,050 --> 01:32:57,200 Defense Intelligence Agency Doty has 1910 01:33:01,930 --> 01:32:59,060 stated repeatedly in different 1911 01:33:05,710 --> 01:33:01,940 interviews that he's with a group of 1912 01:33:07,410 --> 01:33:05,720 retired intelligence operatives you know 1913 01:33:10,000 --> 01:33:07,420 from various branches of the government 1914 01:33:15,460 --> 01:33:10,010 they get together once or twice a year 1915 01:33:18,610 --> 01:33:15,470 and they compare notes and and according 1916 01:33:20,920 --> 01:33:18,620 to him he he and his group had been 1917 01:33:23,830 --> 01:33:20,930 conducting an investigation in the surco 1918 01:33:25,510 --> 01:33:23,840 there they I got the impression that he 1919 01:33:27,630 --> 01:33:25,520 didn't believe that all the information 1920 01:33:30,520 --> 01:33:27,640 and serpo story was true 1921 01:33:32,830 --> 01:33:30,530 Doty is also claimed that they located 1922 01:33:35,800 --> 01:33:32,840 and actually interviewed the last 1923 01:33:39,840 --> 01:33:35,810 surviving member of the serpo team which 1924 01:33:44,880 --> 01:33:39,850 which is very intriguing now UFO 1925 01:33:49,600 --> 01:33:44,890 investigators had tied Dodi's email or 1926 01:33:52,570 --> 01:33:49,610 Internet address to the serpo documents 1927 01:33:57,490 --> 01:33:52,580 and Doty has his side of the story of 1928 01:34:03,160 --> 01:33:57,500 that so again it's it's murky it's kind 1929 01:34:04,690 --> 01:34:03,170 of complicated it's ambiguous but you 1930 01:34:08,030 --> 01:34:04,700 think there might be some truth to it 1931 01:34:14,220 --> 01:34:11,250 and again according to Odie he's been 1932 01:34:15,780 --> 01:34:14,230 told both ways you know one person tells 1933 01:34:17,250 --> 01:34:15,790 them there's no truth to it another 1934 01:34:20,250 --> 01:34:17,260 person tells them that it actually 1935 01:34:22,980 --> 01:34:20,260 happens okay and this is this is 1936 01:34:25,200 --> 01:34:22,990 basically there is a sigh think it's 1937 01:34:28,200 --> 01:34:25,210 serpo org there is a site where they're 1938 01:34:30,480 --> 01:34:28,210 all up and that basically it is a story 1939 01:34:33,090 --> 01:34:30,490 of if you remember the the very end of 1940 01:34:36,720 --> 01:34:33,100 Close Encounters of the Third Kind where 1941 01:34:39,630 --> 01:34:36,730 Roy Neary and kind of joins a team of 1942 01:34:42,180 --> 01:34:39,640 people who go off with the ETS back to 1943 01:34:44,400 --> 01:34:42,190 their home planet and the story is 1944 01:34:46,140 --> 01:34:44,410 basically that this is the account of 1945 01:34:48,540 --> 01:34:46,150 what happened when they were they went 1946 01:34:50,940 --> 01:34:48,550 back to the home planet and that Close 1947 01:34:55,500 --> 01:34:50,950 Encounters was essentially based on this 1948 01:34:56,340 --> 01:34:55,510 true thing that really happened yes yes 1949 01:35:00,660 --> 01:34:56,350 that's correct 1950 01:35:03,680 --> 01:35:00,670 you know the idea being that when the 1951 01:35:07,410 --> 01:35:03,690 craft and the bodies were recovered in 1952 01:35:09,540 --> 01:35:07,420 1947 that one of the aliens survived and 1953 01:35:11,790 --> 01:35:09,550 they managed to establish a certain 1954 01:35:15,120 --> 01:35:11,800 amount of communication with him and 1955 01:35:16,500 --> 01:35:15,130 that and there was technology that they 1956 01:35:19,170 --> 01:35:16,510 were covered from the saucer 1957 01:35:21,240 --> 01:35:19,180 this is the legends the story okay right 1958 01:35:23,610 --> 01:35:21,250 right right this day recovered from the 1959 01:35:27,420 --> 01:35:23,620 saucer and they were eventually able to 1960 01:35:30,630 --> 01:35:27,430 communicate with the aliens home planet 1961 01:35:33,390 --> 01:35:30,640 and they arranged they arranged for the 1962 01:35:35,520 --> 01:35:33,400 aliens come pick up their dead and and 1963 01:35:38,880 --> 01:35:35,530 then they also arranged for an exchange 1964 01:35:41,970 --> 01:35:38,890 program and it's I know it's outlandish 1965 01:35:43,830 --> 01:35:41,980 but if if if there's any truth to any of 1966 01:35:47,550 --> 01:35:43,840 this I mean it's it's really not all 1967 01:35:49,740 --> 01:35:47,560 that out there you know it's it's hard 1968 01:35:51,930 --> 01:35:49,750 to believe how all this could be kept so 1969 01:35:54,480 --> 01:35:51,940 secret but it you know if there's any 1970 01:35:56,040 --> 01:35:54,490 truth to it they're awfully dead serious 1971 01:36:02,100 --> 01:35:56,050 about keeping this secret from the 1972 01:36:04,110 --> 01:36:02,110 public okay yes and actually Frank I 1973 01:36:06,840 --> 01:36:04,120 think was right I haven't had a chance 1974 01:36:11,400 --> 01:36:06,850 to really gloss over this site very long 1975 01:36:14,670 --> 01:36:11,410 but you can go to triple wo org to find 1976 01:36:17,190 --> 01:36:14,680 out more information regarding the kind 1977 01:36:19,500 --> 01:36:17,200 of topics that Frank and Tom are 1978 01:36:20,970 --> 01:36:19,510 covering now and then I also wanted to 1979 01:36:29,370 --> 01:36:20,980 invite folks 1980 01:36:36,270 --> 01:36:29,380 to go to openminds.tv/radio and ro Rojas 1981 01:36:39,200 --> 01:36:36,280 wrote about the Richard Doty and the 1982 01:36:41,730 --> 01:36:39,210 allegations of criminal misconduct and 1983 01:36:43,770 --> 01:36:41,740 I'll just read a smattering of it I 1984 01:36:46,950 --> 01:36:43,780 won't read very much but it starts off 1985 01:36:48,330 --> 01:36:46,960 by saying well it starts out by saying a 1986 01:36:50,250 --> 01:36:48,340 lot of things but I'm just going to go 1987 01:36:52,230 --> 01:36:50,260 and dip into allegations of criminal 1988 01:36:54,860 --> 01:36:52,240 misconduct Air Force Office of Special 1989 01:36:57,600 --> 01:36:54,870 Investigations agent Richard Doty claims 1990 01:36:59,310 --> 01:36:57,610 to have partaken in the acts of 1991 01:37:01,620 --> 01:36:59,320 misinforming members of Congress 1992 01:37:03,500 --> 01:37:01,630 breaking into the private residence of a 1993 01:37:06,120 --> 01:37:03,510 civilian government contractor and 1994 01:37:07,710 --> 01:37:06,130 disseminating known forgeries of 1995 01:37:10,500 --> 01:37:07,720 government documents while on active 1996 01:37:12,030 --> 01:37:10,510 duty in the 80s furthermore he claims to 1997 01:37:16,440 --> 01:37:12,040 have committed these acts on the orders 1998 01:37:19,320 --> 01:37:16,450 of his superiors at a fuzzy which is an 1999 01:37:21,570 --> 01:37:19,330 acronym AFOs I Frank I can never 2000 01:37:25,770 --> 01:37:21,580 remember where Force Office of Special 2001 01:37:28,470 --> 01:37:25,780 Investigations ok yeah it's safe to say 2002 01:37:31,590 --> 01:37:28,480 ohand Rowe hates Doty that is fair to 2003 01:37:35,400 --> 01:37:31,600 say he's expressed that on this show 2004 01:37:39,720 --> 01:37:35,410 directly to me and the chance that 2005 01:37:41,610 --> 01:37:39,730 because he was and not to rant here but 2006 01:37:43,650 --> 01:37:41,620 just to share a little bit about what 2007 01:37:49,080 --> 01:37:43,660 Frank just said Frank's right we had 2008 01:37:52,050 --> 01:37:49,090 Alejandro Rojas on our show and he was 2009 01:37:55,520 --> 01:37:52,060 extremely not just adamant but very 2010 01:38:00,150 --> 01:37:55,530 emphatic about how much he cannot stand 2011 01:38:02,670 --> 01:38:00,160 Richard Doty now I'm not trying to say 2012 01:38:08,130 --> 01:38:02,680 anything about Richard Doty other than 2013 01:38:10,620 --> 01:38:08,140 say Alejandro Rojas was irate about him 2014 01:38:13,770 --> 01:38:10,630 and it was very interesting listening to 2015 01:38:19,170 --> 01:38:13,780 him talk about it in this this topic in 2016 01:38:20,700 --> 01:38:19,180 such an emotional manner so anyway if 2017 01:38:22,500 --> 01:38:20,710 anybody wants to check that out all they 2018 01:38:24,480 --> 01:38:22,510 have to do is type in Google open minds 2019 01:38:27,750 --> 01:38:24,490 TV all Honda Rojas 2020 01:38:31,800 --> 01:38:27,760 Richard Doty and that open letter that 2021 01:38:34,040 --> 01:38:31,810 he wrote very well will be there for 2022 01:38:37,190 --> 01:38:34,050 folks to read it's extremely long our 2023 01:38:39,290 --> 01:38:37,200 cool well and the surfer or go that's a 2024 01:38:42,110 --> 01:38:39,300 it's well worth taking a look at and 2025 01:38:45,170 --> 01:38:42,120 reading it I I think it is fanfiction 2026 01:38:48,170 --> 01:38:45,180 I'm not that convinced any of that is at 2027 01:38:50,150 --> 01:38:48,180 all real and but but it's worth the read 2028 01:38:52,100 --> 01:38:50,160 it's worth going through it's part of 2029 01:38:54,320 --> 01:38:52,110 UFO history one way or the other so 2030 01:38:56,510 --> 01:38:54,330 let's go take a look and also whether 2031 01:38:58,490 --> 01:38:56,520 the mj-12 documents themselves 2032 01:39:00,920 --> 01:38:58,500 you had mentioned Ryan wood he's got a 2033 01:39:03,380 --> 01:39:00,930 site and you can just actually go go to 2034 01:39:06,380 --> 01:39:03,390 his site and read them for yourself and 2035 01:39:06,380 --> 01:39:06,390 make up your own mind 2036 01:39:12,770 --> 01:39:09,890 do you mean dr. Robert Wood yes dr. 2037 01:39:15,020 --> 01:39:12,780 Robert wooden right yes okay right 2038 01:39:17,290 --> 01:39:15,030 that's right I'm sorry um on that open 2039 01:39:20,360 --> 01:39:17,300 letter I you know and we're mentioning I 2040 01:39:22,870 --> 01:39:20,370 reviewed 11 interviews that Richard Doty 2041 01:39:25,970 --> 01:39:22,880 gave in in one interview he said that 2042 01:39:31,430 --> 01:39:25,980 Alejandro Rojas had been a thorn in his 2043 01:39:33,950 --> 01:39:31,440 side open letter to the air force and 2044 01:39:35,560 --> 01:39:33,960 Richard Doty says it the air I don't 2045 01:39:38,450 --> 01:39:35,570 think the air force ever answered 2046 01:39:40,190 --> 01:39:38,460 Alejandro Rojas but the Richard Doty 2047 01:39:44,480 --> 01:39:40,200 said that they sent their copy of the 2048 01:39:48,170 --> 01:39:44,490 letter back to Richard Doty that's 2049 01:39:54,170 --> 01:39:48,180 interesting I'm guessing they don't 2050 01:39:58,250 --> 01:39:54,180 exchange Christmas cards mentioned about 2051 01:40:01,430 --> 01:39:58,260 Dodi and the mj-12 documents is on on 2052 01:40:05,780 --> 01:40:01,440 that open letter that Alejandro Rojas 2053 01:40:08,360 --> 01:40:05,790 wrote about Richard Doty he he quotes 2054 01:40:11,690 --> 01:40:08,370 Doty here as saying according to Doty 2055 01:40:14,840 --> 01:40:11,700 began quote the FBI did an investigation 2056 01:40:18,530 --> 01:40:14,850 on me because of the mj-12 documents 2057 01:40:21,470 --> 01:40:18,540 it was 88 or 89 meaning the year they 2058 01:40:24,590 --> 01:40:21,480 thought I'd disclose those documents and 2059 01:40:26,030 --> 01:40:24,600 quote and then Alejandro goes on to say 2060 01:40:28,280 --> 01:40:26,040 if this is true the results of their 2061 01:40:31,040 --> 01:40:28,290 investigation have yet to be revealed 2062 01:40:34,060 --> 01:40:31,050 and Alejandro wrote this article it 2063 01:40:37,280 --> 01:40:34,070 looks like in May on May 6th of 2014 so 2064 01:40:43,250 --> 01:40:37,290 anyway that's it and how do you feel 2065 01:40:47,630 --> 01:40:43,260 about the possibility Tom of of Richard 2066 01:40:49,760 --> 01:40:47,640 Doty possibly having been involved 2067 01:40:54,380 --> 01:40:49,770 regarding the mj-12 docks in any way 2068 01:40:57,290 --> 01:40:54,390 shape or form whatsoever well if you if 2069 01:41:00,410 --> 01:40:57,300 you expand the definition of the mj-12 2070 01:41:03,470 --> 01:41:00,420 documents to include the documents that 2071 01:41:09,500 --> 01:41:03,480 bill more or less in his book the mj-12 2072 01:41:13,100 --> 01:41:09,510 documents there there was apparently a 2073 01:41:15,740 --> 01:41:13,110 phony UFO report that had been sent to a 2074 01:41:18,830 --> 01:41:15,750 pro that Dodie may have been involved 2075 01:41:22,190 --> 01:41:18,840 with it may have it may have even been a 2076 01:41:24,830 --> 01:41:22,200 counterintelligence exercise there was 2077 01:41:28,460 --> 01:41:24,840 controversy around the so called 2078 01:41:31,130 --> 01:41:28,470 Aquarius telex and which which contains 2079 01:41:35,750 --> 01:41:31,140 actually the first reference public 2080 01:41:39,050 --> 01:41:35,760 reference to mj-12 but a lot of people 2081 01:41:40,910 --> 01:41:39,060 assume that Doty asked more to give that 2082 01:41:43,220 --> 01:41:40,920 to Paul bennewitz even though I'm not 2083 01:41:46,280 --> 01:41:43,230 sure that that is even the case it's 2084 01:41:49,100 --> 01:41:46,290 it's true and Moore has said that he had 2085 01:41:51,890 --> 01:41:49,110 been asked to give this document to Paul 2086 01:41:54,260 --> 01:41:51,900 bennewitz which he did but whether 2087 01:41:58,400 --> 01:41:54,270 Richard Doty had anything to do without 2088 01:42:01,730 --> 01:41:58,410 this I'm not sure there was an instance 2089 01:42:03,410 --> 01:42:01,740 where Linda Howe was brought in to 2090 01:42:07,250 --> 01:42:03,420 Kirtland Air Force Base and she was 2091 01:42:09,050 --> 01:42:07,260 shown a document you know when Richard 2092 01:42:10,940 --> 01:42:09,060 Doty was involved in that but that 2093 01:42:14,830 --> 01:42:10,950 doesn't mean that he created the 2094 01:42:17,060 --> 01:42:14,840 document he has said that he you know 2095 01:42:18,800 --> 01:42:17,070 this employee of the United States 2096 01:42:20,750 --> 01:42:18,810 government and he was acting under 2097 01:42:23,240 --> 01:42:20,760 orders he said that he had received 2098 01:42:26,600 --> 01:42:23,250 awards and commendations from us for his 2099 01:42:29,690 --> 01:42:26,610 work even from the president Andy and 2100 01:42:32,300 --> 01:42:29,700 this whole FBI thing he said that he and 2101 01:42:34,460 --> 01:42:32,310 these are his claims but he said that he 2102 01:42:36,890 --> 01:42:34,470 had undergone two lie-detector tests and 2103 01:42:38,930 --> 01:42:36,900 back in passed both them and and these 2104 01:42:41,750 --> 01:42:38,940 government level lie-detector tests are 2105 01:42:44,540 --> 01:42:41,760 really serious any said he he had been 2106 01:42:47,330 --> 01:42:44,550 cleared of any wrongdoing with all the 2107 01:42:50,660 --> 01:42:47,340 sanctions and it's a fact he hasn't been 2108 01:42:52,460 --> 01:42:50,670 indicted and he's not in jail so what 2109 01:42:55,820 --> 01:42:52,470 whatever he was doing he was doing 2110 01:42:58,130 --> 01:42:55,830 within the context of whatever 2111 01:43:01,490 --> 01:42:58,140 counterintelligence activities were 2112 01:43:04,910 --> 01:43:01,500 being conducted by the AFOs on 2113 01:43:07,580 --> 01:43:04,920 thank you for sharing your insight 2114 01:43:08,930 --> 01:43:07,590 regarding that topic I wanted to share 2115 01:43:10,550 --> 01:43:08,940 with listeners there's an interesting 2116 01:43:11,690 --> 01:43:10,560 film and then I want to ask you what you 2117 01:43:14,330 --> 01:43:11,700 think of it and then we'll need to go 2118 01:43:16,730 --> 01:43:14,340 ahead and wind down regarding Mirage 2119 01:43:19,430 --> 01:43:16,740 Minh which is a 2013 documentary film 2120 01:43:24,350 --> 01:43:19,440 directed by John Lundberg and written by 2121 01:43:27,770 --> 01:43:24,360 Mark Pilkington co-directed by Roland 2122 01:43:31,010 --> 01:43:27,780 Denning and a Kip roasts I can't even 2123 01:43:34,070 --> 01:43:31,020 say his last name I apologize I suppose 2124 01:43:38,450 --> 01:43:34,080 the film had its world premiere at the 2125 01:43:41,270 --> 01:43:38,460 2013 Sheffield dock fest and I I feel 2126 01:43:43,910 --> 01:43:41,280 kind of naive saying this but I actually 2127 01:43:46,760 --> 01:43:43,920 had not seen this film until my co-host 2128 01:43:50,240 --> 01:43:46,770 Frank stalter told me and insisted you 2129 01:43:53,480 --> 01:43:50,250 need to watch his film and I kept saying 2130 01:43:58,280 --> 01:43:53,490 yeah yeah I finally watched it and I 2131 01:43:59,810 --> 01:43:58,290 really just was so glad that Frank kept 2132 01:44:03,380 --> 01:43:59,820 on me about this because I thought it 2133 01:44:06,110 --> 01:44:03,390 was a very interesting documentary or 2134 01:44:08,270 --> 01:44:06,120 film whatever folks want to call it and 2135 01:44:11,330 --> 01:44:08,280 I wanted to ask you Tom what was your 2136 01:44:14,510 --> 01:44:11,340 thoughts on what Richard Doty had to say 2137 01:44:17,870 --> 01:44:14,520 in that dock and just your overall 2138 01:44:21,770 --> 01:44:17,880 perspective regarding that film what do 2139 01:44:23,810 --> 01:44:21,780 you think I'm fascinated by the general 2140 01:44:25,280 --> 01:44:23,820 topic this whole topic of 2141 01:44:28,130 --> 01:44:25,290 counterintelligence work and 2142 01:44:30,080 --> 01:44:28,140 disinformation psyops and all of this 2143 01:44:33,200 --> 01:44:30,090 and in the interaction with the UFO 2144 01:44:35,780 --> 01:44:33,210 community and in the whole mj-12 affair 2145 01:44:39,380 --> 01:44:35,790 which and and I meant to say all along 2146 01:44:41,390 --> 01:44:39,390 tonight chant in Frank that the mj-12 2147 01:44:43,460 --> 01:44:41,400 documents were like a hydrogen bomb 2148 01:44:45,410 --> 01:44:43,470 being dropped on the UFO community and 2149 01:44:48,440 --> 01:44:45,420 the UFO community has never been the 2150 01:44:50,540 --> 01:44:48,450 same since but again I keep quote 2151 01:44:52,940 --> 01:44:50,550 quoting from Richard Dodie's interviews 2152 01:44:54,830 --> 01:44:52,950 but he is very unhappy with that with 2153 01:44:59,020 --> 01:44:54,840 that book in that movie and he had 2154 01:45:03,230 --> 01:44:59,030 problems with the producers of that and 2155 01:45:05,930 --> 01:45:03,240 he he I think he's gotten a little bit 2156 01:45:09,770 --> 01:45:05,940 gun shy in certain ways because I think 2157 01:45:11,870 --> 01:45:09,780 he feels he's gotten a bad rap and part 2158 01:45:13,910 --> 01:45:11,880 of the reason why he's gone out on a lot 2159 01:45:15,229 --> 01:45:13,920 of these interviews is to tell his side 2160 01:45:17,330 --> 01:45:15,239 of the story and hope 2161 01:45:20,689 --> 01:45:17,340 we set the record straight but the 2162 01:45:23,299 --> 01:45:20,699 general genre of this 2163 01:45:25,189 --> 01:45:23,309 counterintelligence work and these 2164 01:45:27,830 --> 01:45:25,199 questioned documents coming into the 2165 01:45:30,799 --> 01:45:27,840 public arena and all of this is 2166 01:45:33,109 --> 01:45:30,809 fascinating to me and Miraj men and the 2167 01:45:38,029 --> 01:45:33,119 video and the book I watched and read 2168 01:45:41,569 --> 01:45:38,039 avidly thank you very much for having 2169 01:45:43,970 --> 01:45:41,579 shared that by the way I I go into the 2170 01:45:45,470 --> 01:45:43,980 CIA archives an awful lot and I just 2171 01:45:46,970 --> 01:45:45,480 wanted to make a comment about what you 2172 01:45:49,100 --> 01:45:46,980 said regarding Richard Doty 2173 01:45:52,339 --> 01:45:49,110 but I'll lead up to it with some some 2174 01:45:56,450 --> 01:45:52,349 some personal stuff I am Frank knows 2175 01:45:59,689 --> 01:45:56,460 this I'm like on CIA archives every day 2176 01:46:01,339 --> 01:45:59,699 always looking for something typing in 2177 01:46:02,660 --> 01:46:01,349 crazy words in the search engine and 2178 01:46:05,180 --> 01:46:02,670 sometimes I come up with some really 2179 01:46:08,720 --> 01:46:05,190 interesting stuff and I think there was 2180 01:46:10,729 --> 01:46:08,730 a article that was really old but it was 2181 01:46:14,870 --> 01:46:10,739 about counterintelligence agents and 2182 01:46:18,859 --> 01:46:14,880 they they're basically trained to 2183 01:46:24,410 --> 01:46:18,869 actually at least during 50 60s 70s so 2184 01:46:28,430 --> 01:46:24,420 on trained to mislead leaders of nations 2185 01:46:32,989 --> 01:46:28,440 that's literally to the level some of 2186 01:46:37,089 --> 01:46:32,999 them are trained to to to to to mislead 2187 01:46:39,649 --> 01:46:37,099 folks so they're trained to mislead and 2188 01:46:42,649 --> 01:46:39,659 maybe at times in a hierarchical manner 2189 01:46:45,259 --> 01:46:42,659 meaning like just for civilians maybe 2190 01:46:46,899 --> 01:46:45,269 others to mislead leaders of nations and 2191 01:46:50,720 --> 01:46:46,909 everything in between 2192 01:46:55,910 --> 01:46:50,730 that kind of thing now my understanding 2193 01:47:01,189 --> 01:46:55,920 is Rick Doty worked at area 51 2194 01:47:04,310 --> 01:47:01,199 maybe s4 specifically to actually he was 2195 01:47:08,239 --> 01:47:04,320 there to monitor any Russian activity 2196 01:47:10,489 --> 01:47:08,249 that may have been occurring in a in a 2197 01:47:13,310 --> 01:47:10,499 counterintelligence type fashion or 2198 01:47:17,239 --> 01:47:13,320 other kind of intelligence fashion he 2199 01:47:20,839 --> 01:47:17,249 was there to possibly protect the s4 2200 01:47:24,109 --> 01:47:20,849 area of area 51 to keep the Russians 2201 01:47:26,739 --> 01:47:24,119 from infiltrating that area or having 2202 01:47:28,989 --> 01:47:26,749 any influence or taking information out 2203 01:47:31,370 --> 01:47:28,999 that is my 2204 01:47:33,949 --> 01:47:31,380 understanding now I could be wrong about 2205 01:47:38,410 --> 01:47:33,959 that night don't mind being wrong but at 2206 01:47:42,379 --> 01:47:38,420 the same time if he is a self-confessed 2207 01:47:45,620 --> 01:47:42,389 disinformation agent it's really 2208 01:47:49,370 --> 01:47:45,630 difficult to put a lot of stock in 2209 01:47:52,040 --> 01:47:49,380 somebody who who claims to be a 2210 01:47:54,500 --> 01:47:52,050 disinformation agent and then have sour 2211 01:48:00,410 --> 01:47:54,510 grapes about it later 2212 01:48:05,509 --> 01:48:00,420 and so the fact that an individual is 2213 01:48:08,449 --> 01:48:05,519 trained to manipulate and lie through 2214 01:48:12,049 --> 01:48:08,459 professional means because that is their 2215 01:48:15,199 --> 01:48:12,059 job I find it hard to have sympathy for 2216 01:48:18,109 --> 01:48:15,209 that person what are your thoughts on 2217 01:48:19,790 --> 01:48:18,119 that everything I just said Tom if you 2218 01:48:21,879 --> 01:48:19,800 don't mind a little bit of insight 2219 01:48:24,799 --> 01:48:21,889 regarding how you feel about all that 2220 01:48:26,870 --> 01:48:24,809 well and I and again I'm I'm sorry to 2221 01:48:29,270 --> 01:48:26,880 keep repeating from him but I can relate 2222 01:48:33,290 --> 01:48:29,280 what he said in these interviews and 2223 01:48:37,100 --> 01:48:33,300 that is they get a situation they take 2224 01:48:41,180 --> 01:48:37,110 it into the office they write reports 2225 01:48:43,549 --> 01:48:41,190 their supervisors look at it then it's 2226 01:48:47,719 --> 01:48:43,559 possible then it's usually run up the 2227 01:48:50,689 --> 01:48:47,729 flagpole to DC and the higher-ups and DC 2228 01:48:52,910 --> 01:48:50,699 decide what action they want to take or 2229 01:48:55,600 --> 01:48:52,920 not want to take and the instructions 2230 01:48:59,209 --> 01:48:55,610 come back to the local afo a psych 2231 01:49:01,040 --> 01:48:59,219 office with instructions in plans and 2232 01:49:04,250 --> 01:49:01,050 directives and orders and then it's 2233 01:49:05,870 --> 01:49:04,260 their job to carry that out so I think 2234 01:49:08,149 --> 01:49:05,880 people have gotten the impression that 2235 01:49:10,750 --> 01:49:08,159 Richard Doty and people like him just 2236 01:49:13,609 --> 01:49:10,760 dream up ways to make people miserable 2237 01:49:16,040 --> 01:49:13,619 and they're there they're do they have a 2238 01:49:18,739 --> 01:49:16,050 job they're trained you know he went to 2239 01:49:20,419 --> 01:49:18,749 a pretty extensive training but before 2240 01:49:25,180 --> 01:49:20,429 he ever started doing this kind of work 2241 01:49:28,520 --> 01:49:25,190 and and he know it's possible maybe 2242 01:49:30,589 --> 01:49:28,530 maybe he misbehaved at times maybe he 2243 01:49:33,859 --> 01:49:30,599 was overzealous you know that's possible 2244 01:49:37,310 --> 01:49:33,869 but I believe that he and anyone else in 2245 01:49:39,020 --> 01:49:37,320 that in that milieu is doing their job 2246 01:49:41,299 --> 01:49:39,030 they're doing what they're supposed to 2247 01:49:42,740 --> 01:49:41,309 be doing and these some of these 2248 01:49:46,220 --> 01:49:42,750 nefarious scheme 2249 01:49:47,690 --> 01:49:46,230 like that this whole affair with Paul 2250 01:49:50,750 --> 01:49:47,700 bennewitz that people have gotten so 2251 01:49:53,570 --> 01:49:50,760 upset about some of that could be cooked 2252 01:49:57,980 --> 01:49:53,580 up in Washington DC they they want it 2253 01:50:00,740 --> 01:49:57,990 done that way so you know I asked for 2254 01:50:03,530 --> 01:50:00,750 having sympathy maybe maybe that's not 2255 01:50:06,740 --> 01:50:03,540 appropriate but you know give the guy a 2256 01:50:09,980 --> 01:50:06,750 break all right well I really want to 2257 01:50:15,650 --> 01:50:09,990 thank you for having taken the time to 2258 01:50:19,450 --> 01:50:15,660 allow us to just ask you anything and be 2259 01:50:22,910 --> 01:50:19,460 so so specific and so definitive and 2260 01:50:26,780 --> 01:50:22,920 just also want to thank you for being so 2261 01:50:29,660 --> 01:50:26,790 patient too because often times I'll 2262 01:50:32,570 --> 01:50:29,670 jump from topic to topic just to sort of 2263 01:50:34,520 --> 01:50:32,580 test a guest on their knowledge base 2264 01:50:36,740 --> 01:50:34,530 regarding whatever it is we're bringing 2265 01:50:40,790 --> 01:50:36,750 up and just really feel like you've 2266 01:50:42,500 --> 01:50:40,800 covered everything so wonderfully and I 2267 01:50:43,850 --> 01:50:42,510 just love listening to you sometimes I 2268 01:50:47,420 --> 01:50:43,860 forget to even ask you a question 2269 01:50:49,160 --> 01:50:47,430 because and I told you this before Tom I 2270 01:50:54,050 --> 01:50:49,170 really think that you should just have 2271 01:50:56,150 --> 01:50:54,060 your own podcast and you have to stay 2272 01:51:00,050 --> 01:50:56,160 because I know that people would love to 2273 01:51:03,140 --> 01:51:00,060 just listen to you talk and want to let 2274 01:51:06,710 --> 01:51:03,150 people know that they need to go to Tom 2275 01:51:13,960 --> 01:51:06,720 Whitmore blog dot wordpress.com and that 2276 01:51:17,540 --> 01:51:13,970 is Tom WH ite mo ar e blog dot 2277 01:51:20,230 --> 01:51:17,550 wordpress.com and I'm going to say it 2278 01:51:23,720 --> 01:51:20,240 one last time Tom Whitmore blog 2279 01:51:26,990 --> 01:51:23,730 wordpress.com please go there and also 2280 01:51:29,840 --> 01:51:27,000 know that that is a site in progress I 2281 01:51:32,240 --> 01:51:29,850 suspect that it's also going to become 2282 01:51:33,560 --> 01:51:32,250 more fleshed out as time goes forward 2283 01:51:35,180 --> 01:51:33,570 you're going to have a lot more 2284 01:51:37,010 --> 01:51:35,190 information on there not that you do not 2285 01:51:41,030 --> 01:51:37,020 now because you do you've quite the list 2286 01:51:42,800 --> 01:51:41,040 there of topics and also look forward to 2287 01:51:44,990 --> 01:51:42,810 any more information that you're going 2288 01:51:47,090 --> 01:51:45,000 to come out with in the coming months 2289 01:51:49,610 --> 01:51:47,100 and years Tom thank you so much for 2290 01:51:52,310 --> 01:51:49,620 having been on our show tonight thanks a 2291 01:51:54,410 --> 01:51:52,320 lot I really appreciate it I had a great 2292 01:51:56,450 --> 01:51:54,420 time thanks so much thank you chant and 2293 01:51:59,270 --> 01:51:56,460 Frank I've been delighted to be here 2294 01:52:01,729 --> 01:51:59,280 enjoyed it very much alright so we're 2295 01:52:03,530 --> 01:52:01,739 gonna wrap up here and thanks for 2296 01:52:05,600 --> 01:52:03,540 listening in and I don't have the 2297 01:52:08,060 --> 01:52:05,610 schedule in front of me but I think we 2298 01:52:09,830 --> 01:52:08,070 have something if not this Sunday then 2299 01:52:11,240 --> 01:52:09,840 the following Sunday we've got that not 2300 01:52:13,189 --> 01:52:11,250 something else and I'll have to check to 2301 01:52:15,260 --> 01:52:13,199 see who's going to be on with us but 2302 01:52:16,610 --> 01:52:15,270 we'll be back before you know it so 2303 01:52:17,240 --> 01:52:16,620 thanks for joining in and good night